"There is no footwork"

[Lou]

It’s worth pointing out that this isn’t the footwork they use now.

Back in the dark ages of MJ (or at least well before I started....) the major Ceroc franchise in Australia taught the footwork you see in that clip. I’m not sure of the exact timeline, but at some stage after they split into Ceroc Australia and CMJ, CMJ (that would be Nicky Haslams group) introduced what is now called step footwork as “intermediate footwork”, and kept what you see in the above clip as “beginners footwork”. Sometime in the more recent past they then scrapped the beginners footwork you see in this clip altogether and now teach step footwork from the very start.

Ta for the update.

There's a similar statement in the Wikipedia article about Modern Jive, but I didn't really understand what it meant about bringing feet together, but it sounds in practice it's similar to what Andy's talking about.

[Lee Bartholomew]

From the comments I see in this thread, more than you're giving credit to!!!

Most of the people commenting on this thread are very experianced dancers or teachers so I would expect that to be the case.

Maybe you need to attend some different classes. I hear "body lead" and "weight change" regularly mentioned by Rocky. It's also taught by S&N.

I not from your profile you attend their classes. they are both very good teachers and I would expect to hear them talk about that, but go up to the main room at a weekender and dance. See if you get your Body Lead then.

BTW when I teach MJ I will always teach it*

*Depending on who and where I am teaching.

[Amir]

I think every year Andy brings up this topic, and every year I contribute a similar stance:

You can do whatever footwork you want in modern jive.

The simplist footwork possible is to step once per beat*. No exceptions, no complications, easy to learn and to do.

In my experience you should tell beginners to do this footwork because they almost invariably and almost immediately start to dance better.

If you are a teacher there is no point arguing about theories: just try telling your beginner class 'I suggest you keep stepping once per beat,'** and show them how. If they dance better then keep teaching it. If they dance worse then stop.

*once per beat if you count the class 5,6,7,8. If you count 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 then you're counting half time to my 'beats' in which case the footwork I recommend teaching beginners is two steps to every one of your counts.

**I would also recommend men step left on the downbeats, ladies on the right, since this is a simple and almost universally applicable 'rule' that can work for almost all normal MJ moves.

[Lou]

I think every year Andy brings up this topic, ....

It's one of those comforting things that you know you can rely on.

I like Andy's prefered footwork. It's simple. I'd be very happy if everyone taught it. I *like* footwork, and I personally think it helps beginners learn if they know what they need to do with their feet (YMMV).

The only thing I'd advise Andy is to accept that other footwork patterns exist - and that his prefered footwork is just one of many. I think he'd be more successful in his arguments if he were to sell its advantages more, rather than denigrate the alternatives.

(I only joined the thread to answer his question about how a dancer would know that his partner was back on the left foot, so I'm done! )

[Andy McGregor]

It's one of those comforting things that you know you can rely on.

You're welcome.

I like Andy's prefered footwork. It's simple. I'd be very happy if everyone taught it. I *like* footwork, and I personally think it helps beginners learn if they know what they need to do with their feet (YMMV).

The only thing I'd advise Andy is to accept that other footwork patterns exist - and that his prefered footwork is just one of many. I think he'd be more successful in his arguments if he were to sell its advantages more, rather than denigrate the alternatives.

I have no problem with alternative footwork and teach it myself. Even in the beginners moves I teach an arm jive with the weight on each foot for 2 beats. I call this the "Dad Dance" footwork - e.g. stepleft-tapright-stepright-tapleft (this describes 4 musical beats of dancing).

What I "denigrate" on this thread is the "there is no footwork" camp. This year my theme is "of course there's footwork".

And I'm very unimpressed with the teaching of complex footwork to beginners. There is nice, simple, basic footwork that fits just about every modern jive move. Why make it complicated?

[Andy McGregor]

Andy,
I have been reading this thread and not always following the descriptions. Is there a clip you would be able to show that demonstrates the footwork you are describing?
Thanks,
Mark

In this clip Yoko is doing the basic RLRL footwork most the the time between lifts.



Of course that's the experts and there are some footwork variations in there. Modern Jive is mostly a social dance and it's taken a bit of looking to find a freestyle where the music that is playing is the music that the dancer hear. However, here's a clip from a Ceroc weekender;



Just about every lady is doing RLRL the footwork I'm calling the "basic". One thing you can do when you're behind the decks or standing around at a freestyle is to mind-control almost all the ladies. Think "right" on the one and "left" on the two - 99% of the ladies will be stepping in line with your thoughts. I've been trying other thoughts but so far I've only managed to control their dancing

N.B. I tried the "embed" thing for the YouTube Clips and it didn't work for me. I've put in the links instead.

[dunk]

I think the best video to help show the footwork that Andy is describing is here:



Notice the guy pointing his toes up, this is merely a style point

[todd]

What I "denigrate" on this thread is the "there is no footwork" camp. This year my theme is "of course there's footwork".

And I'm very unimpressed with the teaching of complex footwork to beginners. There is nice, simple, basic footwork that fits just about every modern jive move. Why make it complicated?

Couldn't agree more, Andy. I can't honestly say I've heard "there's no footwork" many times before myself - the fact there are so many on here willing to discuss it suggests there are people out there spouting such stuff... No footwork would mean standing still, on one spot - the moment the person moves from that spot, he/she has taken a step. And that, in a very basic way, is footwork (a bit like saying there is no footwork in walking!) Hands up all those who stand on one spot while dancing?!

Amir - "'I suggest you keep stepping once per beat,'"

Sorry, dissagree with this. Typical "steps" in the warm up

Count in - 5, beat, 6, beat, 7, beat, 8:

Beat 1 - Moving, slide (step) one foot back
Beat 2 - weight over back foot
Beat 3 - moving, slide (step) foot forward
Beat 4 - Feet back together, weight transfer
Beat 5 - moving, slide (step) other foot back
Beat 6 - weight over back foot
Beat 7 - moving, slide (step) foot forward
Beat 8 - Feet back together, weight transfer

8 beats, 4 "steps"

And so on.

With plenty of talk about position, posture, weight transfer, etc. I then try to blend that into the moves during the beginner lesson. If they step on every beat they'll be taking double steps - step back on one foot then the other then forward on the 1st foot the forward on the other, and so on - IE marching. Or stomping.

[David Bailey]

Hands up all those who stand on one spot while dancing?!

Ummm....

[Andy McGregor]

I think the best video to help show the footwork that Andy is describing is here:



Notice the guy pointing his toes up, this is merely a style point

I think this is an example of a couple really enjoying their MJ. But it's not really an example of the step, step lady's footwork. It's mostly step, tap - which is fine and still MJ.

[MarkW]

In this clip Yoko is doing the basic RLRL footwork most the the time between lifts.



Of course that's the experts and there are some footwork variations in there. Modern Jive is mostly a social dance and it's taken a bit of looking to find a freestyle where the music that is playing is the music that the dancer hear. However, here's a clip from a Ceroc weekender;



Just about every lady is doing RLRL the footwork I'm calling the "basic". One thing you can do when you're behind the decks or standing around at a freestyle is to mind-control almost all the ladies. Think "right" on the one and "left" on the two - 99% of the ladies will be stepping in line with your thoughts. I've been trying other thoughts but so far I've only managed to control their dancing

N.B. I tried the "embed" thing for the YouTube Clips and it didn't work for me. I've put in the links instead.

Thanks Andy.

I think what you call RLRL I would call LRLR as I tend to think upbeat - downbeat - upbeat - downbeat or ting - thud - ting - thud in the easier dances to pick it out.

Also, I think I'm seeing that Yuko is very consistent in setting off on her left foot on an upbeat every time that stepping pattern starts up and the ladies in the other clip are sometimes LRLR and sometimes RLRL. I think they look rather fine and intend no criticism. I certainly wouldn't want my dancing to be compared to Phil Webb's dancing.

[NZ Monkey]

Amir - "'I suggest you keep stepping once per beat,'"

Sorry, disagree with this. Typical "steps" in the warm up

Count in - 5, beat, 6, beat, 7, beat, 8:

Beat 1 - Moving, slide (step) one foot back
Beat 2 - weight over back foot
Beat 3 - moving, slide (step) foot forward
Beat 4 - Feet back together, weight transfer
Beat 5 - moving, slide (step) other foot back
Beat 6 - weight over back foot
Beat 7 - moving, slide (step) foot forward
Beat 8 - Feet back together, weight transfer

8 beats, 4 "steps"

And so on.

With plenty of talk about position, posture, weight transfer, etc. I then try to blend that into the moves during the beginner lesson. If they step on every beat they'll be taking double steps - step back on one foot then the other then forward on the 1st foot the forward on the other, and so on - IE marching. Or stomping.

I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with. Amir suggests you take one step (or weight change) every beat, and that he finds this the easiest way to effectively get people dancing in a way that more closely resembles dancing than flailing. For what it’s worth, I agree with him.

I’m not certain what you have against a marching rhythm, as in the above example you’re still doing much the same but with less obvious connection to the music. From my perspective not making weigh changes for half the dance makes it much more likely for the dancers to rely on arm leads than body ones, which is something I’d prefer to avoid. Finally, stomping can happen regardless of how many steps you’re taking, and is a problem in it’s own right.

[Amir]

If they step on every beat they'll be taking double steps - step back on one foot then the other then forward on the 1st foot the forward on the other, and so on - IE marching. Or stomping.

Just curious; this is your experience that students stomp when taught to step once per beat, or is it what you are worried would happen if you try?

In my experience so far, teaching one step per beat for most students does not cause them to stomp, but does seem to improve their body placement, co-ordination and timing. When stomping occurs, it doesn't seemt to take long to (ahem) stomp out, by just asking people not to stomp.

I don't, however, teach to step back with one foot then the other, but rather to rock-step, so the front foot tends to remain more or less in place, but with a weight transfer on each step.

The system you teach seems more complicated to me, since it doesn't seem to have co-ordinated which foot someone will step back on. This, (I imagine) would make it hard to lead any moves where there is a desired footwork placement. Such as a first move where almost everyone seems to teach to step back on the outside foot when side by side etc.

Anyway, a clearer illustration of some modern jive moves with the footwork I'm talking about can be seen in the first video on this page:
http://www.jango.co.uk/aboutjango.htm

(Ignore the ochos.)

[Andy McGregor]

Anyway, a clearer illustration of some modern jive moves with the footwork I'm talking about can be seen in the first video on this page:
http://www.jango.co.uk/aboutjango.htm

(Ignore the ochos.)

Thanks Amir. That's exactly the footwork I teach. There can't be easier footwork IMHO. The guy knows exactly what the lady will be doing at all times and knows which way she will turn comfortably and correctly.

[Andy McGregor]

Sorry, dissagree with this. Typical "steps" in the warm up

Count in - 5, beat, 6, beat, 7, beat, 8:

I don't want to disagree with Todd too much as he's worked hard on his post. Just one point. The count in is just 7 beats, it should be 8.

This is why I really dislike the 5&6&7&8& count. The eight count is on beat 7.

I think I've mentioned this before

[todd]

Just curious; this is your experience that students stomp when taught to step once per beat, or is it what you are worried would happen if you try?

I haven't tried, but have observed plenty of people who do step on every beat (much like I described and thought your original post would encourage) and look like they are marching. I don't, personaly, like it so won't teach it. Whether the marching people have be taught that way or simply started doing it for themselves is another question! (BTW, I do know one guy who does teach exactly that - back, back, forward, forward, every single beat and ends up with twice as many steps, twice as fast. Looks terrible!)

In my experience so far, teaching one step per beat for most students does not cause them to stomp, but does seem to improve their body placement, co-ordination and timing. When stomping occurs, it doesn't seemt to take long to (ahem) stomp out, by just asking people not to stomp.

Fair enough - if it works for you then cool

I don't, however, teach to step back with one foot then the other, but rather to rock-step, so the front foot tends to remain more or less in place, but with a weight transfer on each step.

Hmmm, and here in highlights my miss-understanding..! I took your original statement of "Step every beat" literally (like the chap I mention above). What you have now described is similar to what I also teach.

The system you teach seems more complicated to me, since it doesn't seem to have co-ordinated which foot someone will step back on. This, (I imagine) would make it hard to lead any moves where there is a desired footwork placement. Such as a first move where almost everyone seems to teach to step back on the outside foot when side by side etc.

Sorry Amir, I fail to see the complication! Back and forth, back and forth. Let's remember, I talking about the warm up (same thing can be applied to the basic in and out at the start of many beginner lessons). So which foot to step back on is irrelavent other than having everyone doing the same thing at the same time. You mention the 1st move. I agree that the outside feet are back when in the open position. To get there doesn't mean we need to step back on a particular foot at the very begining of the move - it makes no difference if I step back on left or right at the start; I can still complete the move, smoothly and well lead, which ever foot I initially step back on. That means students can step back on what ever is comfortable/natural - IE less complicated and less to learn/remember...! (I suspect the complication was in the way I attempted to explain it in my post!!!)

Anyway, a clearer illustration of some modern jive moves with the footwork I'm talking about can be seen in the first video on this page:
http://www.jango.co.uk/aboutjango.htm

(Ignore the ochos.)

Thanks Amir - Andy; agree & same here (as it happens!)

[todd]

I don't want to disagree with Todd too much as he's worked hard on his post. Just one point. The count in is just 7 beats, it should be 8.

This is why I really dislike the 5&6&7&8& count. The eight count is on beat 7.

I think I've mentioned this before

Go right ahead Andy - every one else has!!!

Goes to show that writing this stuff down just doesn't work! Sooo easy to miss-interpret. 5&6&7&8 = 7 just as you say. Now put another "&" in front of the 5... Now try actually saying it out loud... (only the first "and", otherwise it'd sound, er, daft!!!)

[straycat]

Go right ahead Andy - every one else has!!!

Goes to show that writing this stuff down just doesn't work! Sooo easy to miss-interpret. 5&6&7&8 = 7 just as you say. Now put another "&" in front of the 5... Now try actually saying it out loud... (only the first "and", otherwise it'd sound, er, daft!!!)

Let me know if I understand you correctly.
You're counting in by saying '& 5 & 6 & 7 & 8', using eight beats of music.
The first '&' comes on beat 1.
The '5' comes on beat 2.
The '8' now comes on beat 8.
And the '1' where people actually start is exactly one beat after you count: '8'.

I rather hope I've misunderstood this.

[Andy McGregor]

Let me know if I understand you correctly.
You're counting in by saying '& 5 & 6 & 7 & 8', using eight beats of music.
The first '&' comes on beat 1.
The '5' comes on beat 2.
The '8' now comes on beat 8.
And the '1' where people actually start is exactly one beat after you count: '8'.

I rather hope I've misunderstood this.

If I was doing this kind of count, which I'm not btw, I'd start saying 5 on beat 1 of the 8 and end up saying & on beat 8. I think you need an & before the 1.

[todd]

And the '1' where people actually start is exactly one beat after you count: '8'.

Oh dear, I rather wish I didn't join in the discussion now...!

Not quite, Straycat. I'd say "8" on the eigth beat and then we all start moving (stepping/sliding back during the next beat) such that we are all on the back foot (weight transferred) on the "1" - IE two beats, one count.

No doubt some of you will want to tell me how wrong I am!