View Poll Results: My regular or most recent Modern Jive teacher ...

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  • .. sometimes or often tells me what I should be doing with my feet.

    15 75.00%
  • .. never tells me what my feet should be doing.

    1 5.00%
  • .. says "there is no footwork".

    4 20.00%
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Thread: "There is no footwork"

  1. #61
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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post

    Of course if you are in tension and step backwards then that will happen, but how many MJ'ers have WCS style tension???
    From the comments I see in this thread, more than you're giving credit to!!!

  2. #62
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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    AConsider the scenario where I say to a student "in this track the break is on the 1": it would be really confusing if I then counted them in using the 5&.. count as I would be saying "5" when the break came in. It would be even more confusing if the break was on the 5 as it would come in when I when I said "7".
    Ah, but you have more sense & musicality than that! If you wanted them to come in on the 1, you'd start your countdown accordingly beforehand.

    I hate those teachers who start their count at the wrong time - like the start of the fourth bar. It's painful. Or count the class in when you know there's a break coming. Can they not hear the bloomin' music?

  3. #63
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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Would you not keep stationary during a 4 beat break?.
    The beat does not stop during a break. I'm sure it's there in the sheet music. It's just some or all of the musicians who stop playing - and some of the dancers.

    Of course this is a nonsense as you haven't said what 'stationary' you are keeping. Envelopes would probably be easy as you can keep them in your pocketses while you're dancing

  4. #64
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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post

    When I teach jive it's how I teach it, but I have only ever seen body lead taught once before in MJ and that was by Franck. In all the years and classes I have danced at and in, I have never heard body lead mentioned.
    Maybe you need to attend some different classes. I hear "body lead" and "weight change" regularly mentioned by Rocky. It's also taught by S&N.

  5. #65
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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Ah, but you have more sense & musicality than that! If you wanted them to come in on the 1, you'd start your countdown accordingly beforehand.
    But sometimes I'm only talking about musicality. And I do count them into the break to show how it fits the musical structure. Why pick a method of counting the music which is a nonsense when you start talking about the structure of the music?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    I hate those teachers who start their count at the wrong time - like the start of the fourth bar. It's painful.
    In real life with a room full of people waiting to start the routine the wait seems too long and I often just pick an 8 count and get moving.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Or count the class in when you know there's a break coming. Can they not hear the bloomin' music?
    The class always seems impressed when you say "there's a break coming up in the music, we'll wait for that to pass before we start". And, before you say, "why pick a track with a break?", I refer you to the previous sentence where the class is impressed

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    Maybe you need to attend some different classes. I hear "body lead" and "weight change" regularly mentioned by Rocky. It's also taught by S&N.
    Me too. I even talk about body lead in beginners moves like the hatchback.

  7. #67
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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Why pick a method of counting the music which is a nonsense when you start talking about the structure of the music?
    I don't think it's that odd, actually. IMHO it highlights the pulse of the music that we typically dance to.
    You could equally ask yourself why you prefer a variety of footwork that best suits a 2/4 beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In real life with a room full of people waiting to start the routine the wait seems too long and I often just pick an 8 count and get moving.
    But it's just one more bar... (sounds like a motto for life! )

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The class always seems impressed when you say "there's a break coming up in the music, we'll wait for that to pass before we start". And, before you say, "why pick a track with a break?", I refer you to the previous sentence where the class is impressed

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    But it's just one more bar... (sounds like a motto for life! )
    At least two more bars - now there is a motto

    When I teach in schools even an 8 count seems too long for the attention span of some of the children. I recently tried counting them in for just 4 beats. It worked, but it felt wrong starting them on the 5. I've changed back to the whole 8 count now.

    Unfortunately it was that lesson where they started on 5 that they chose to put on their website. It's here

    N.B. I've just noticed it was my 53rd birthday. Obviously early onset Alzheimers

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    You could equally ask yourself why you prefer a variety of footwork that best suits a 2/4 beat?
    I pick the footwork I pick because that is the footwork I see at MJ events and dances. And it's not the only footwork I teach - but it is the basic footwork. And all the variations I teach are completely leadable without hand signals or verbal leads.

    There are other kinds of footwork danced and taught as the MJ basic in the odd class around the country. What I want to know is why?

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Nice juxtaposition with your sig there

  11. #71
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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    There are other kinds of footwork danced and taught as the MJ basic in the odd class around the country. What I want to know is why?
    Good question. I wondered that too. And you might decide to open it up wider - to the odd class in the whole world, as there's interesting footwork in Oz & NZ. The common source of the footwork I've used as my example seems to be Michel Gay. Does he still have anything to do with the Feds? If so, could you ask him & let me know what he says?

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    The common source of the footwork I've used as my example seems to be Michel Gay. Does he still have anything to do with the Feds? If so, could you ask him & let me know what he says?
    Michel has nothing to do with the Federation as far as I know. Apart from sleeping with the Treasurer and and Examiner - don't worry, they're both the same person.

    And I'm still not sure what footwork you're describing as I have no idea what beat the ands and the counts are in the bar when they're numbered in a non-consecutive manner. I'm really interested to have this footwork explained and to see it written down. Can you write down the ladies footwork for, let's say a travelling return. Start at beat 1 of an eight cound and work your way to beat 8 of that count and then start of the next 8 count.

  13. #73
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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Mike Ellard teaches a lot of footwork. I don't know if anyone has attended one of his classes. But the are very ad lib, and he would probably be the first to admit that the moves with footwork that he teaches are not really Ceroc. He is a rock 'n' roller.

    Mind you his classes are usually so ad lib that if you were to go to him during freestyle and ask him to re-show you the second move he probably won't remember what it was.

  14. #74
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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Can you write down the ladies footwork for, let's say a travelling return. Start at beat 1 of an eight cound and work your way to beat 8 of that count and then start of the next 8 count.
    Sorry Andy, I'm confused. I'm not sure what you're asking for. Too many counts in that sentence!

    Here's an old classic of an example of the footwork to which I refer... straight from the annals of Modern Jive history ....



    Did we all dance like that?! Bless!

    Anyway - let's look at some examples of the lovely Nicky's footwork.

    She's back on her left at 0:12, ready to start the move. They've changed places at 0:14, and she's back on her right, ready for the Return.
    At 0:16 she's back on her left, ready for the next move (an Octopus, no less!)

    If we then fast forward to 0:30 for the First Move, she's back on her Left again. At 0:34 she's back on her right about to go into a Return again (as it annoyingly fades to black...)

    Does this help illustrate what I mean?

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Does this help illustrate what I mean?
    Yes, I think it does.

    What a shame you had to go to the other side of the planet to show it.

    And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this footwork variation. I've danced with her and had no problem leading her or responding to her frequent hijacks.

    However, she's not dancing the basic MJ footwork. She's dancing a variation and that is much harder for beginners to copy. Which makes it a much harder dance to learn.

  16. #76
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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    In the vid, she's following basic turning rules. After every clockwise turn or movement, she's back on her right foot and vice versa. Also note that she commits her weight to her back foot and that her next step is therefore on her front foot - there's no walking over the front foot here.

    Some may say this is "natural" footwork, but it's footwork all the same and it's not uncommon to see dancers NOT doing this!! Such basics DO need teaching, but it is rare to see it taught, unfortunately.

  17. #77
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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Yes, I think it does.

    What a shame you had to go to the other side of the planet to show it.
    Why's that a shame? (BTW... I stayed in my living room )

    It's just a great example of what I was talking about. I found some other examples - like DanceYourselfDizzy.com, but they weren't anywhere near as clear or well danced.

    However, she's not dancing the basic MJ footwork.
    I disagree. She's simply not dancing YOUR basic MJ footwork.

    Lots of people dance your footwork. However, there are also many others who dance different footwork - and that's not limited to the one version I'm talking about. So, if your objective is to define MJ by your footwork pattern, I don't think you'll succeed. Sorry.

    She's dancing a variation and that is much harder for beginners to copy. Which makes it a much harder dance to learn.
    She's dancing a perfectly valid MJ footwork pattern. I learnt it that way alright, but then - I'm a dance genius*



    *Yeah, right!

  18. #78
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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Yes, I think it does.

    What a shame you had to go to the other side of the planet to show it.

    And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this footwork variation. I've danced with her and had no problem leading her or responding to her frequent hijacks.

    However, she's not dancing the basic MJ footwork. She's dancing a variation and that is much harder for beginners to copy. Which makes it a much harder dance to learn.
    Andy,
    I have been reading this thread and not always following the descriptions. Is there a clip you would be able to show that demonstrates the footwork you are describing?
    Thanks,
    Mark

  19. #79
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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    In the vid, she's following basic turning rules. After every clockwise turn or movement, she's back on her right foot and vice versa. Also note that she commits her weight to her back foot and that her next step is therefore on her front foot - there's no walking over the front foot here.
    These basic rules are what makes it so simple - and not at all difficult to learn. And this explanation helps answer Andy's question from post 21 of this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I can still remember a teacher who told me "of course the lady goes back on her left foot if you're going to do a first move". My next question was "how does she know it's going to a be first move when you're in freestyle?"

  20. #80
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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Sorry Andy, I'm confused. I'm not sure what you're asking for. Too many counts in that sentence!

    Here's an old classic of an example of the footwork to which I refer... straight from the annals of Modern Jive history ....



    Did we all dance like that?! Bless!

    Anyway - let's look at some examples of the lovely Nicky's footwork.

    She's back on her left at 0:12, ready to start the move. They've changed places at 0:14, and she's back on her right, ready for the Return.
    At 0:16 she's back on her left, ready for the next move (an Octopus, no less!)

    If we then fast forward to 0:30 for the First Move, she's back on her Left again. At 0:34 she's back on her right about to go into a Return again (as it annoyingly fades to black...)

    Does this help illustrate what I mean?
    It’s worth pointing out that this isn’t the footwork they use now.

    Back in the dark ages of MJ (or at least well before I started....) the major Ceroc franchise in Australia taught the footwork you see in that clip. I’m not sure of the exact timeline, but at some stage after they split into Ceroc Australia and CMJ, CMJ (that would be Nicky Haslams group) introduced what is now called step footwork as “intermediate footwork”, and kept what you see in the above clip as “beginners footwork”. Sometime in the more recent past they then scrapped the beginners footwork you see in this clip altogether and now teach step footwork from the very start.

    I don’t know enough about Ceroc Australia to comment on how they teach footwork.

    These days the pattern usually taught is a step-together-step-together one, although in practice the moves sometimes require it to be more like step-step-step-step. This doesn’t seem to confuse anybody on the dance floor. Also, as far as I can gather the first step is taken on the upbeat and on the opposite foot from the one Andy prescribes. This helps develop connection at the beginning, but by the following downbeat everybody is dancing “on the same foot”. Please keep in mind that I’d really need to see a clip of the way Andy describes before I can be absolutely confident of comparing the two.

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