View Poll Results: My regular or most recent Modern Jive teacher ...

Voters
20. You may not vote on this poll
  • .. sometimes or often tells me what I should be doing with my feet.

    15 75.00%
  • .. never tells me what my feet should be doing.

    1 5.00%
  • .. says "there is no footwork".

    4 20.00%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 140

Thread: "There is no footwork"

  1. #21
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    What I originally said though was, that by learning a simplistic form of dance like modern jive, the dancer gains enough confidence to go on a learn a technically more difficult dance and then be able to incorporate this in their MJ dance
    I can see where you're coming from. People do incorporate moves that they originally learnt in other dances. And it is possible as a follower to recognise those moves. However, some people think it's OK to do those moves without changing the timing to MJ timing and without warning their partner.

    This would be like changing, mid-dance, from a rumba to a Foxtrot and expecting your partner to get it.

    I believe that this problem arises because footwork is not usually taught as the writing through the rock in MJ. It seems to be taught on a move by move basis. And some people seem to think the footwork changes depending on the move*. I can still remember a teacher who told me "of course the lady goes back on her left foot if you're going to do a first move". My next question was "how does she know it's going to a be first move when you're in freestyle?"

    *Sometimes the footwork does change. But it's the lead that changes the footwork, not the move itself.

  2. #22
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    Footwork is usually mambo/salsa type step, v occasionally a columbian, and cha cha (almost every week for Phil Webb given his background).
    The problem with only teaching specific footwork for some moves is that you get into the wrong mindset.

    For example, I can lead a Columbian without any footwork on my part - simply walking along forwards; or for that matter backwards. This sounds great, but any competent Tango dancer could do the same thing; a Columbian is just a straightened-out giro movement.

    But if my follower thinks that the feet "should" be moving in a specific way, then they tend to fight against my lead, and I can't lead them.

    My opinion about MJ footwork is that followers should move their feet in the most natural way as clearly indicated by their leaders, and that leaders can do any footwork they want, as long as it doesn't compromise the clarity of their lead.

    Ummm.... that's it.

  3. #23
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    My opinion about MJ footwork is that followers should move their feet in the most natural way as clearly indicated by their leaders, and that leaders can do any footwork they want, as long as it doesn't compromise the clarity of their lead.

    Ummm.... that's it.
    This is pretty much it - very succinctly put

    In the open hold the follower is still in control of their weight change and that is why there needs to be an agreement what the basic is in MJ. Most people agree that the basic is that the lady steps on every beat starting with the right foot on beat 1.

  4. #24
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Holby
    Posts
    3,772
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I believe that this problem arises because footwork is not usually taught as the writing through the rock in MJ. It seems to be taught on a move by move basis. And some people seem to think the footwork changes depending on the move*. I can still remember a teacher who told me "of course the lady goes back on her left foot if you're going to do a first move". My next question was "how does she know it's going to a be first move when you're in freestyle?"
    Without knowing which teacher, but having a fair idea where they were coming from, I doubt that they only meant the First Move!!

    She knows to go back on her left foot because you will have just led her through a move with an anti-clockwise turn, such as a Return. (Prior to the Return, she would've been back on her right foot). It's the way that it's been taught, and it's a very simple rule.

    Sorry, Andy - I still like this particular variation of footwork. I like the structure, the syncopated rhythm, and that it makes it easier to do multiple spins. (And there is no damned skippedy bit in it! )

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Most people agree that the basic is that the lady steps on every beat starting with the right foot on beat 1.
    Which also is a perfectly good footwork pattern, and very easy to do.

  5. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Oxford
    Posts
    677
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    My opinion about MJ footwork is that followers should move their feet in the most natural way as clearly indicated by their leaders and that leaders can do any footwork they want, as long as it doesn't compromise the clarity of their lead.
    Useful rules, but I'm not sure they always help - particularly for beginners. If you're an experienced dancer, then getting the footwork is secondary to getting the movement right. But if you're new, then you don't know how the movement is meant to feel, so it's really hard to know if you're providing a clear lead or not.

    The basic rule of ballroom and latin is that to move the body, you move your feet. If you want to move back, then you step backwards. Doing anything else breaks your frame (there are body movements, but these are built on top of - and extend - the footwork. Even in latin, a lot of the hip movement comes from the footwork). So in ballroom and latin the first thing you learn on any new move is the footwork, even as an absolute beginner. MJ isn't ballroom and will never have the precision of footwork that ballroom relies on, but I'm not sure that it should be ignored completely.

    When I look at beginners with any sense of rhythm (especially guys), the most common problem I see is they have atrocious footwork: they either shuffle or take steps that are far too large, often stepping out from under their body. Those things are really easy to fix, they make the rest of their dancing much easier and they would make a huge improvement to their leading/following. But it needs to be fixed very near the start or it becomes habitual.

  6. #26
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    1,156
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    When I look at beginners with any sense of rhythm (especially guys), the most common problem I see is they have atrocious footwork: they either shuffle.
    What is shuffling thought bad ?

  7. #27
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Without knowing which teacher, but having a fair idea where they were coming from, I doubt that they only meant the First Move!!

    She knows to go back on her left foot because you will have just led her through a move with an anti-clockwise turn, such as a Return. (Prior to the Return, she would've been back on her right foot). It's the way that it's been taught, and it's a very simple rule.
    I agree with Lou 100%. If I put in a return at the end of a move, and I often do, the lady will, as Lou says, step back with left foot. But that step back will be on an even numbered beat. Therefore it can never be "beat one" of any move because it must be an even numbered beat - one is not an even number.

  8. #28
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    The basic rule of ballroom and latin is that to move the body, you move your feet.
    I was always taught the other way around - to move your feet, you move your body, and generate all movement from the core.

    Thing about footwork, and footwork patterns - it's beguilingly easy to think of this as where you step, with which foot, and when (placement and rhythm), and to forget that how you step is every bit as important, affecting every aspect of your movement, and many aspects of your connection with your partner.

    A nice example being...
    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    What is shuffling thought bad ?
    It's much harder to give a good clear lead if you're shuffling your feet a lot, instead of making your steps clear and committing to weight changes.

  9. #29
    Registered User emmylou25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Banbury
    Posts
    554
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    When I look at beginners with any sense of rhythm (especially guys), the most common problem I see is they have atrocious footwork: they either shuffle or take steps that are far too large, often stepping out from under their body. Those things are really easy to fix, they make the rest of their dancing much easier and they would make a huge improvement to their leading/following. But it needs to be fixed very near the start or it becomes habitual.
    Makes sense, but you wouldn't believe the number of beginners who find such seemingly simple things really hard. Usually because they don't realise that these are basics that are essential to learn, and also because it's really dull to learn how to step properly when you've got moves they want to learn. Even showing people what size of steps they should be taking, or how to transfer all their weight...I think some people are hearing and nodding, but still don't do what you're suggesting to help them. Sometimes I just pray that eventually it'll click as there's only so much time I can explain things before they think, it's too technical/boring/hard/she's going on at me before they never come back again.

  10. #30
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    Makes sense, but you wouldn't believe the number of beginners who find such seemingly simple things really hard. Usually because they don't realise that these are basics that are essential to learn, and also because it's really dull to learn how to step properly when you've got moves they want to learn.
    Aye. A workshop environment can be easier - at one Lindy camp, I remember spending two 1 1/2 hour workshops doing little more than marching to music from one side of the floor to another. Which may sound incredibly dull, but what we were being asked to do was HARD - if one threw oneself into it, the time flew by.

    You can't get away with that level of technique in beginners' (or even intermediate) classes though - although we do like to put some simple & fun walking exercises in as a warmup, just to get people moving a little better.

  11. #31
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    She knows to go back on her left foot because you will have just led her through a move with an anti-clockwise turn, such as a Return. (Prior to the Return, she would've been back on her right foot).
    Going back on the right foot would preserve momentum - that's the way it'd happen in a salsa turn, for example. On the other hand, going back on the left foot might be more in line with the standard MJ "frame", such as it is.

    On the third hand, my follower will damn well go back on the foot that I want her to, and if she has options, then I'm not leading it clearly enough.

  12. #32
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Useful rules, but I'm not sure they always help - particularly for beginners.
    Well, if beginners were taught about weight transfer to start with...

    I've been teaching Tango to a Finchley Ceroc crowd the past few weeks, and simple concepts like putting your partner on one foot and keeping her there are difficult for them.

    Not because they're beginners, they're often quite experienced dancers, but because they've never been taught this straightforward concept before.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    The basic rule of ballroom and latin is that to move the body, you move your feet.
    Huh. The basic rule of tango is the exact opposite.

    Weird.

  13. #33
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    On the third hand, my follower will damn well go back on the foot that I want her to, and if she has options, then I'm not leading it clearly enough.
    In the one hand, open, hold it is difficult to control the followers weight. Therefore the convention is to step on every beat. In the clockwise turns and anti-clockwise returns this footwork is maintained. This means that turns can only be initiated on odd numbered beats and returns on even numbered beats.

    The whole process of a turn or a return on the spot takes two/three beats. One beat for the 360 degree turn, one for the step which places the weight on the foot unweighted in the turn and a step back with the foot that has just borne the weight in the turn. This process is, IMHO, one secondary things that define MJ.

  14. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Oxford
    Posts
    677
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    What is shuffling thought bad ?
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    It's much harder to give a good clear lead if you're shuffling your feet a lot, instead of making your steps clear and committing to weight changes.
    That. And it looks naff. And you're more likely to drift off the beat without distinct steps. And it's usually accompanied by no frame.

    I should be clear: I'm not talking about something like the blues basic, where you shift your weight, but don't really move your feet. Nor am I talking about keeping your feet in contact with the floor (something I think is mostly a good thing). I'm talking about vague, indistinct foot movements with only a passing relationship to the music.
    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    Makes sense, but you wouldn't believe the number of beginners who find such seemingly simple things really hard.
    Actually, I would believe it.
    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    Sometimes I just pray that eventually it'll click as there's only so much time I can explain things before they think, it's too technical/boring/hard/she's going on at me before they never come back again.
    There will always be people who don't (or won't) get it. You can't do much about it. But I think you can do a lot to help a lot more people become a lot better. I know not everyone wants to be a great dancer. But I do think most people who attend MJ classes want to become better dancers than they currently are.

    (By 'you' I mean ceroc - not you personally!)
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Well, if beginners were taught about weight transfer to start with...

    I've been teaching Tango to a Finchley Ceroc crowd the past few weeks, and simple concepts like putting your partner on one foot and keeping her there are difficult for them.

    Not because they're beginners, they're often quite experienced dancers, but because they've never been taught this straightforward concept before.
    Lack of basic technique is frustrating. I find I can easily move my partner onto whichever foot I want. But most of them move back onto the other foot without me leading it. With the better dancers, I can use a body-check to hold them in place. But it's not as elegant as I'd like.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Huh. The basic rule of tango is the exact opposite.
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I was always taught the other way around - to move your feet, you move your body, and generate all movement from the core.
    It doesn't mean you lead from your feet - the lead should come from the frame (or core, if you prefer - it's the same thing). What it means is that you don't go anywhere without moving your feet. When you step, you shift your weight in the direction of travel, but you don't really travel until you step. If you turn, you slightly rotate your body first, but you do most of the turn with your feet. What I've found is that if you know what you're feet are meant to be doing, you get the rest of your body doing all the things its meant to so that you can do it.

    So, when you learn, you learn the footwork first. If you're a beginner, they add the frame on after you have the footwork. If you're an experienced dancer, you'd be expected to know what to do with your frame from the footwork.
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Thing about footwork, and footwork patterns - it's beguilingly easy to think of this as where you step, with which foot, and when (placement and rhythm), and to forget that how you step is every bit as important, affecting every aspect of your movement, and many aspects of your connection with your partner.
    True. But you have to start somewhere. As I said, in ballroom, you start with where and when, then move to how. In most MJ venues, you're usually told when, but where and how are left fairly vague.

  15. #35
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Holby
    Posts
    3,772
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I agree with Lou 100%. If I put in a return at the end of a move, and I often do, the lady will, as Lou says, step back with left foot. But that step back will be on an even numbered beat. Therefore it can never be "beat one" of any move because it must be an even numbered beat - one is not an even number.
    I don't agree, Andy. If she's doing your footwork, she'll be doing that step on her left foot as part of the turn, and will go back on her right. Your count - 1 & 2 & 3 (Right foot steps on the count - left foot steps on the '&'. The lady is turning during the red bit).

    In the footwork I'm talking about, she'll spin before going back on her left, as she needs to "brake" & transfer weight to her right, before stepping back. My count - 1, 2 & 3. (Step onto the left on 1 & spin through 2, step onto right on the '&', and weight transfer back on left on 3).

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Going back on the right foot would preserve momentum - that's the way it'd happen in a salsa turn, for example.
    Or Merengue.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    On the other hand, going back on the left foot might be more in line with the standard MJ "frame", such as it is.
    Ta, but I don't think it actually does anything for the frame at all, so, sadly I can't really build that into my case for this particular footwork.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    On the third hand, my follower will damn well go back on the foot that I want her to, and if she has options, then I'm not leading it clearly enough.
    Too right.

    I'm just saying that if you're both used to the pattern, it's easy enough to lead the lady back on the left. And IMHO that's perfectly valid in MJ.

  16. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    681
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    In the footwork I'm talking about, she'll spin before going back on her left, as she needs to "brake" & transfer weight to her right, before stepping back. My count - 1, 2 & 3. (Step onto the left on 1 & spin through 2, step onto right on the '&', and weight transfer back on left on 3).

    Isn't that WCS timing
    Last edited by DavidY; 1st-June-2010 at 07:07 PM. Reason: Fixing quote

  17. #37
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Hastings
    Posts
    4,386
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Footwork in most dances is only there to get the upper body to move correctly. If you can make the upper body move correctly then you don't need the footwork.

    WCS is a good example of this. Beginners are taught footwork but after awhile the footwork patterns change, yet the upperbody motions are still the same.

    MJ is mainly arm lead. What you do with your feet will have no effect on what you do with your arms.

    Also you could say to people you must turn anti clockwise on your left foot, but they might prefer turning anticlockwise on their right. Footwork in MJ is mainly preference, what works for one might not work for another.

    Do you think teaching footwork has produced better dancers?

  18. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Bracknell, United
    Posts
    194
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post

    MJ is mainly arm lead. What you do with your feet will have no effect on what you do with your arms.
    Poppycock!!!

    If I'm in tension and step backwards, my body moves backwards and, as it's attached, my arm moves backwards, hence my follower moves forward.

  19. #39
    Registered User Whitebeard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Cheltenham, Glouce
    Posts
    2,307
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Huh. The basic rule of tango is the exact opposite.

    Weird.
    And WCS too, it would seem.

    However, the physics is constant whatever the jargon, semantics, concepts, intents, by which such movement may be described.

  20. #40
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Bracknell, United
    Posts
    194
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard View Post
    And WCS too, it would seem.

    However, the physics is constant whatever the jargon, semantics, concepts, intents, by which such movement may be described.


    So why should MJ be any different??

    If other dances are led by use of movement of frame, core and weight, then why not MJ?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. "There are no gays in Iran"
    By David Bailey in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 27th-September-2007, 09:13 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •