View Poll Results: My regular or most recent Modern Jive teacher ...

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  • .. sometimes or often tells me what I should be doing with my feet.

    15 75.00%
  • .. never tells me what my feet should be doing.

    1 5.00%
  • .. says "there is no footwork".

    4 20.00%
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Thread: "There is no footwork"

  1. #1
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    "There is no footwork"

    Following on from another thread I was wondering how many classes teach any footwork in MJ? And how many teachers are still saying "there is not footwork"?

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Generally the teachers at my ceroc venues don't actually mention footwork to beginners, but during intermediates will often do classes which incorporate footwork - they'll then break off to show the footwork in detail for people to follow (concerns me when I see people in a warm up unable to step in time or with any resemblance to being on the beat/being coordinated when all they're doing is a step to the side school disco style!).

    Footwork is usually mambo/salsa type step, v occasionally a columbian, and cha cha (almost every week for Phil Webb given his background).

    What I see is the majority of people getting it in class, but avoiding it totally in freestyle, as they're not always sure how to lead the follower without shouting the name of the move at them.

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    There is some footwork taught but a lot more basic than in say, salsa or WCS but it is not completely ignored.

    When I used to taxi at Romford, Karen always did a pre beginners' class with basic footwork getting people used to stepping back on certain feet etc.

    I think the joy of Modern Jive is not to overly rely on set footwork, but to gradually embrace it after you have learnt to do the basics and can dance. At least you can go along and enjoy the evening without being bombarded with footwork and can still enjoy a level of dancing with quite limited knowledge.

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    I think the joy of Modern Jive is not to overly rely on set footwork, but to gradually embrace it after you have learnt to do the basics and can dance. At least you can go along and enjoy the evening without being bombarded with footwork and can still enjoy a level of dancing with quite limited knowledge.
    I think this is absolutely right. There are no set footwork patterns. The basic is walking footwork, no pattern, just one step/weight change on every beat in the open hold.

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    My teachers give mixed amounts of direction, but they all tell the beginners which foot to go back with for a first move or a basket, and many intermediate classes involve something footwork related.

    I find it a decent balance, and greater focus on footwork earlier on might have been one thing too many to my overloaded brain.

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    Footwork is usually mambo/salsa type step, v occasionally a columbian, and cha cha (almost every week for Phil Webb given his background).
    That, to me, is the mis-apprehension that lies at the base of this whole issue.

    Footwork is there every time you move your foot. To suggest that footwork only exists when you're doing very specific footwork patterns, but not the rest of the time, is a real problem.

    The basic pattern in MJ is pretty simple: step and weight change on each beat. But just because it's simple doesn't mean it doesn't exist or doesn't need to be taught. I have a few friends who went to a few ceroc lessons and gave up - because they were never sure which foot they should be stepping on.

    This is further complicated by the fact that most moves work better if you are on the right foot. This is particularly true when spinning and so forth. Take a first move as an example: when you open, the guy needs to have their weight on their inside (right) foot and step on the left. To do that properly, you need to start the move by stepping back on your left foot. A good lead will also lead the woman back on their right foot. This is really easy, but it's also really important.

    (As an aside, this is why I resolutely refuse to do the step from side to side before starting a move. It gets in the way of footwork and makes it harder for me to lead which foot my partner is using).

    All the people I enjoy dancing with - including yourself - know this and follow the basic footwork patterns. Part of the reason I enjoy it is that I don't have to worry about what you're doing with your feet. If I've led the last movement properly, I know where your weight will be and which foot you'll be on. That makes it much easier for me to lead you and opens up far more possibilities in the dance.

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    (As an aside, this is why I resolutely refuse to do the step from side to side before starting a move. It gets in the way of footwork and makes it harder for me to lead which foot my partner is using).
    I teach this stepping as the starter for the beginners routines. It gets people moving to the beat and it get's everyone on to the correct foot to start the routine - so long as the class are counted in properly so the lady's weight is on her left on the 8 of the count-in and the guy's weight is on his right on the 8. This means they start the routine on the 1 of the next 8 count on the correct foot and the only variable they need to consider is direction for that first step.

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    it get's everyone on to the correct foot to start the routine
    In most/all of the classes I attend, at least a quarter of the class is on the other foot to the teachers.

    It's certainly never been taught that the count is to aid the correct weight distribution - at least half the class swing arms without moving feet! Most people seem to use it to pick up the beat, and nothing more.

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    For many years the only time Ceroc ever brought the movement of the feet into their teaching was in stepping backwards and forwards, spinning correctly, pivoting and very, very occasionally on specific moves (in particular moves that involved triple step).

    Having said Mile Ellard does like footwork. I used to find his classes soooo difficult. I don't anymore of course. Because I don't go to them.

    As mentioned in another thread. The lack of "official" footwork in Ceroc, makes it somewhat limited in the range of moves that can be taught. Which is why some of the more advanced dancers. especially in the late 80's to late 90's left to set up their own similar dance classes with added footwork.

    And which is why IMHO the Ceroc Champs are somewhat misleading in that it is almost impossible to win the advanced/overall title by just doing Ceroc.

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    .........And which is why IMHO the Ceroc Champs are somewhat misleading in that it is almost impossible to win the advanced/overall title by just doing Ceroc.
    .........by just doing Ceroc ?

    A couple of the new MJ classes that have emerged in the past 10 years has been musicality and styling.

    The current standard of MJ dancing is so high today, the pre 2000 champs "Intermediate level" would be the same and the current Advance and the current "Advance Level" in the Champs is equavalent to the "Open" in the 90's (BTW did they have an Open then ?)

    AND it is common for the "Open" to include non MJ/Ceroc moves and styling (with footwork )


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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    That, to me, is the mis-apprehension that lies at the base of this whole issue.

    Footwork is there every time you move your foot. To suggest that footwork only exists when you're doing very specific footwork patterns, but not the rest of the time, is a real problem.

    The basic pattern in MJ is pretty simple: step and weight change on each beat. But just because it's simple doesn't mean it doesn't exist or doesn't need to be taught. I have a few friends who went to a few ceroc lessons and gave up - because they were never sure which foot they should be stepping on.

    This is further complicated by the fact that most moves work better if you are on the right foot. This is particularly true when spinning and so forth. Take a first move as an example: when you open, the guy needs to have their weight on their inside (right) foot and step on the left. To do that properly, you need to start the move by stepping back on your left foot. A good lead will also lead the woman back on their right foot. This is really easy, but it's also really important.

    (As an aside, this is why I resolutely refuse to do the step from side to side before starting a move. It gets in the way of footwork and makes it harder for me to lead which foot my partner is using).

    All the people I enjoy dancing with - including yourself - know this and follow the basic footwork patterns. Part of the reason I enjoy it is that I don't have to worry about what you're doing with your feet. If I've led the last movement properly, I know where your weight will be and which foot you'll be on. That makes it much easier for me to lead you and opens up far more possibilities in the dance.
    Which is why when people ask me (either in rotation or in taxi review class) I always say it's easier for future moves for the lady to step back on the right foot & get used to stepping back on this. But, ceroc teachers do not refer to any stepping etc as 'footwork' in beginners as this is generally what is believed scares beginners off. Personally I think they should make more of a point of it, but then I've had a good grounding in lots of dance types including salsa where you have to do basic steps with specific footwork otherwise the more complex moves don't work. And I guess that's why S&N teach how to walk with the correct work when doing their jive classes/workshops (too much time IMO, but I guess if there's a lot of people in class who've not worked out which foot is correct then they do need that help).

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think this is absolutely right. There are no set footwork patterns. The basic is walking footwork, no pattern, just one step/weight change on every beat in the open hold.
    I think that is great because it gets people who may otherwise have been put off learning to dance dancing. Maybe when those same people are more confident they will then look to try other styles and incorporate it into their modern jive.

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    .........by just doing Ceroc ?

    (BTW did they have an Open then ?)
    What I meant by "just doing Ceroc," is that from the first Ceroc Champs in the late '90's the main category winners apart from the lucky dip had included moves not taught by Ceroc and choreographed footwork.

    There was an annual competition in the early '90's, a friend of mine won it twice with her partner. Can't remember the name exactly. Might have been the London Modern Jive Champs or The London Modern French Jive Champs.

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think this is absolutely right. There are no set footwork patterns. The basic is walking footwork, no pattern, just one step/weight change on every beat in the open hold.
    That is a footwork pattern. As I've said, it's not a complex one, but it is a pattern. The most critical part of the pattern is the step back to create tension between lead and follow.

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    included moves not taught by Ceroc and choreographed footwork.
    Isn't that just "the best place to put your feet" when doing certain moves? The rest of the move is quite important i would have thought

    Surely "doing Ceroc" is synonymous with "doing modern jive" and all the salsa/wcs/rockandroll/blues/etc things that grow into it?

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    I think that is great because it gets people who may otherwise have been put off learning to dance dancing. Maybe when those same people are more confident they will then look to try other styles and incorporate it into their modern jive.
    Styles are decorations. They are not the foundation. And styles come and go. However, the basic foundation in MJ has stayed the same for at least the last 10 years.

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Isn't that just "the best place to put your feet" when doing certain moves? The rest of the move is quite important i would have thought


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Surely "doing Ceroc" is synonymous with "doing modern jive" and all the salsa/wcs/rockandroll/blues/etc things that grow into it?
    But I think that many of the drops, seducers and ariels that are part of the routines that the very best dancers use in their attempt to win the champs are not taught by Ceroc. You need to go to specialist workshops or other jive clubs in order to learn them. If one were to attempt to win the Ceroc Champs by just doing moves taught by Ceroc one's chances might be slim. Maybe it has been done, I don't know. It would be nice

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Styles are decorations. They are not the foundation. And styles come and go. However, the basic foundation in MJ has stayed the same for at least the last 10 years.
    I think you have misunderstood what I meant, probably because I should have said genres rather than style. When I dance with people at Modern Jive now, it incorporates bits of tango and WCS, rather than just bog standard Modern Jive.

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    I think you have misunderstood what I meant, probably because I should have said genres rather than style. When I dance with people at Modern Jive now, it incorporates bits of tango and WCS, rather than just bog standard Modern Jive.
    Are you sure that it's not just your experience has broadened so that you now recognise bits as being similar to tango & WCS?

    I don't think that MJ has changed that much... a bit less pronunciation on every beat, the good dancers are more controlled in their actions, the music has slowed a little bit (R&B influence in the current pop charts)... but in terms of footwork, moves and styling; I can't see too much change.

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    Re: "There is no footwork"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Are you sure that it's not just your experience has broadened so that you now recognise bits as being similar to tango & WCS?

    I don't think that MJ has changed that much... a bit less pronunciation on every beat, the good dancers are more controlled in their actions, the music has slowed a little bit (R&B influence in the current pop charts)... but in terms of footwork, moves and styling; I can't see too much change.

    Yes this is true that the more you dance and the more you learn to recognise other forms of dancing; then you can see and feel the influences of these forms of dancing in modern jive.

    What I originally said though was, that by learning a simplistic form of dance like modern jive, the dancer gains enough confidence to go on a learn a technically more difficult dance and then be able to incorporate this in their MJ dance

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