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Thread: Is CEROC a Cult?

  1. #41
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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    Surely core to Ceroc's business is teaching people how to dance in a convivial environment?!?!?
    Not so far as I've seen - or been told. It's primarily a volume business - getting enough people to pay to come in the doors each night. This is achieved by giving people a good night out. Dancing is very much of secondary importance to the model.

    At least that's exactly the line I was given my a ceroc franchise owner when I. He simply didn't care about the fact that the good dancers were leaving (a fact he agreed with) and that the standard of teaching was declining (another view he agreed with). The reason the standard of teaching was declining was not because the teachers were getting any worse, but because they were being asked to dumb down their classes to get more people through the door.

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Not so far as I've seen - or been told. It's primarily a volume business - getting enough people to pay to come in the doors each night. This is achieved by giving people a good night out. Dancing is very much of secondary importance to the model.

    At least that's exactly the line I was given my a ceroc franchise owner when I. He simply didn't care about the fact that the good dancers were leaving (a fact he agreed with) and that the standard of teaching was declining (another view he agreed with). The reason the standard of teaching was declining was not because the teachers were getting any worse, but because they were being asked to dumb down their classes to get more people through the door.
    I'm not actually sure whether you're disagreeing with me or not

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    I'm not actually sure whether you're disagreeing with me or not
    He's disagreeing with you.

    Ceroc's core business is not primarily about teaching people to dance. It's about making money in a venue; the fact that some teaching of dance happens in that venue is secondary. The business is not driven by teaching; teaching is an unavoidable overhead.

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    He's disagreeing with you.

    Ceroc's core business is not primarily about teaching people to dance. It's about making money in a venue; the fact that some teaching of dance happens in that venue is secondary. The business is not driven by teaching; teaching is an unavoidable overhead.
    I see your point, but his line "This is achieved by giving people a good night out" kinda supports my point too.

    Let's face it, what we're really talking about here is generally beginners. Those wishing to take their dancing further seek out extra tuition, more often than not, outside of the Ceroc empire

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    Those wishing to take their dancing further seek out extra tuition, more often than not, outside of the Ceroc empire
    Do you actually have any evidence of this? Or is it one of those assumptions that people who do actually do this tend to make?

    And I don't just mean from out of your friends, or even the people on the forum. I mean from the thousands of people who weekly take a Ceroc class in the UK. How many of those who wish to take their dancing further take classes outside of the Ceroc empire?

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    I mean from the thousands of people who weekly take a Ceroc class in the UK. How many of those who wish to take their dancing further take classes outside of the Ceroc empire?
    Looking from a purely social dance point of view with a single partner, after attending attending regular classes for say 1-2 years and the various ad hoc workshops that are available how does someone go about furthering their MJ using a regualr program from within the Ceroc empire?

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Looking from a purely social dance point of view with a single partner, after attending attending regular classes for say 1-2 years and the various ad hoc workshops that are available how does someone go about furthering their MJ using a regualr program from within the Ceroc empire?
    Are you saying that all workshops offered within the Ceroc empire are 'various ad hoc', and of no benefit to those people (whether they've been dancing for 1-2 years or longer) to those people wishing to further their dancing skills?

    Or that for people to further their dance skills there has to be a regular program? People learn and further their skills in different ways, and I'd hate to suggest that there has to be a single way for the, to do this....

    Anyhow, off the top of my head, private lessons, Ceroc weekend events, asking for tips from, and just dancing with better dancers. Least, having had very little dance training outside Ceroc on a personal level, that's some of how I did it, and I'm not wishing to speak for anyone else here, which is partly where my original question came from.

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    He's disagreeing with you.

    Ceroc's core business is not primarily about teaching people to dance. It's about making money in a venue; the fact that some teaching of dance happens in that venue is secondary. The business is not driven by teaching; teaching is an unavoidable overhead.
    Most, if not all businesses are about making money

    if an overhead is avoidable, most business with avoid them

    If a venue does not make money, eventually it will go bust and close. No advantage to the organiser, the venue or the customer

    A key element in making a business successful is to keep the customer happy ( Remember the customer is allways right)

    I suspect many Ceroc customers do not want to learn to dance , they just want a brilliant, value for money, night out, and if learning to dance is secondary to having a great night out, that's fine by me

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    Most, if not all businesses are about making money

    if an overhead is avoidable, most business with avoid them
    Sure, I'm not criticising Ceroc, I'm just pointing out that their business model for a weekly class night is not driven by teaching as a primary revenue generator. If it was so driven, there'd be much more emphasis on teaching and much less on freestyle.

    Compare with Tango classes, which are often - usually, even - just classes; these are primarily learning environments, they sell teaching (and, occasionally, shoes).

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    I suspect many Ceroc customers do not want to learn to dance , they just want a brilliant, value for money, night out, and if learning to dance is secondary to having a great night out, that's fine by me
    Yep - again, I'm not saying their business model is "wrong", just that it's not teaching-based.

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Anyhow, off the top of my head, private lessons, Ceroc weekend events, asking for tips from, and just dancing with better dancers. Least, having had very little dance training outside Ceroc on a personal level, that's some of how I did it, and I'm not wishing to speak for anyone else here, which is partly where my original question came from.
    Thanks for the information and I agree with with what you say.

    However I feel that the areas raised do not really lend themselves to a regular individual progressive program of tuition and I believe that it is this that attracts people to seek tuition outside the Ceroc empire.

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    ....., I'm just pointing out that their business model for a weekly class night is not driven by teaching as a primary revenue generator. If it was so driven, there'd be much more emphasis on teaching and much less on freestyle.

    Compare with Tango classes, which are often - usually, even - just classes; these are primarily learning environments, they sell teaching (and, occasionally, shoes).

    ......
    One thing I disliked about Tango classes was the the lack of time to practice what I had just been taught

    Eduardo Bozzo runs 3 classes a night, one after each other, with no break between, beginners have no chance to dance with the intimidates. The cost of each class is more than a whole evening at Ceroc

    The thing I like about my Ceroc class is, I get a lesson AND a freestyle to practice all for £7

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Are you saying that all workshops offered within the Ceroc empire are 'various ad hoc', and of no benefit to those people (whether they've been dancing for 1-2 years or longer) to those people wishing to further their dancing skills?

    Or that for people to further their dance skills there has to be a regular program?
    There is a programme, the Cerocshop thing
    • Beginners 1 & 2
    • Beginners Plus
    • Intermediate One & Two
    • Style 1
    • Style 2


    But it's not like these workshops are heavily-promoted as being "required".

    And many of the other workshops are indeed ad-hoc, and seem to me to be more hype than substance.

    Looking at a few of these ad-hoc ones, I see:


    Of that lot, the only one looking vaguely interesting is the first part of the Focus workshop. Others seem to be all jargon and hype - "Liquid Latin" for example, what on Earth does that mean?

    If the Ceroc business were driven more by teaching, there'd be far more promotion of teaching, at all levels, from class nights to weekenders. At the moment, they're optional and little-known components.
    Last edited by David Bailey; 4th-June-2010 at 02:42 PM.

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Cerocshop thing
    But it's not like these workshops are heavily-promoted as being "required"..
    I think these are on all the franchise websites and as easy if not easier to find than any course outside the Ceroc empire.
    And many of the other workshops are indeed ad-hoc
    The Cerocshop does give some form of progressive program but they do not go beyond a certain point.
    and seem to me to be more hype than substance.
    I think this is a bit unfair. Generally speaking the Ceroc workshops or their predessessors I have attended have always had relevant content and been well taught.




    Looking at a few of these ad-hoc ones, I see:
    Of that lot, the only one looking vaguely interesting is the first part of the Focus workshop.
    DB many people are interested in learning MJ blues dancing as well as technique.
    Others seem to be all jargon and hype - "Liquid Latin" for example, what on Earth does that mean?
    I believe 'Liquid Latin' is taught by Maja. I don't know if you have attended any workshops taught by her but she is very good at teaching individual body isolation moves such as body rolls and various loosely put Latin and Tango routines, many people my self included have found her workshops very useful.

    If the Ceroc business were driven more by teaching, there'd be far more promotion of teaching, at all levels, from class nights to weekenders. At the moment, they're optional and little-known components
    There is teaching in the Ceroc business, almost every night in nearly every part of the country. However it only goes up to a cetain level and does become repetative. But I think this is what the majority of their customers want.

    As I have said above if you want teaching beyond that certain point then you generally need to look outside of the Ceroc empire and mainstream MJ teachers generally.

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I think these are on all the franchise websites and as easy if not easier to find than any course outside the Ceroc empire.
    Sure, but they're not heavily-promoted - certainly not in the classes. They are there, but they're not hyped much. They're simply not that valuable as a primary business to Ceroc. Which was my original point.

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    The Cerocshop does give some form of progressive program but they do not go beyond a certain point.
    Yes - there's no "where to go after Style II" information, which realistically I'd estimate most Ceroc dancers could do after 1-2 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I believe 'Liquid Latin' is taught by Maja. I don't know if you have attended any workshops taught by her but she is very good at teaching individual body isolation moves such as body rolls and various loosely put Latin and Tango routines, many people my self included have found her workshops very useful.
    Maybe, but the description is all hype - "sexy sassy moves blah blah blah".

    Besides, I had an excellent class in body rolls from the Dance God that is Horacio Godoy last weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    As I have said above if you want teaching beyond that certain point then you generally need to look outside of the Ceroc empire and mainstream MJ teachers generally.
    Yes. Teaching is simply not that important as part of their business to Ceroc.

    And past 1-2 years, teaching is simply irrelevant - it's not seen as worth it to Ceroc to promote any learning programme beyond that point, they clearly don't believe there is a consistent demand from their customers.

    (Admittedly this is a massive over-generalisation, as "Ceroc" covers a wide range of franchisees, some of whom do make such efforts. But "Ceroc" sets the overall agenda, structure and basic business model still)

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Besides, I had an excellent class in body rolls from the Dance God that is Horacio Godoy last weekend
    Maybe you should do a demo?

    ...............but on the other hand maybe not

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Maybe you should do a demo?
    Hey, I can wiggle my hips with the best of them you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    ...............but on the other hand maybe not
    I'm no Cecilia. But then, neither is anyone else...

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Do you actually have any evidence of this? Or is it one of those assumptions that people who do actually do this tend to make?

    And I don't just mean from out of your friends, or even the people on the forum. I mean from the thousands of people who weekly take a Ceroc class in the UK. How many of those who wish to take their dancing further take classes outside of the Ceroc empire?
    Perhaps a good subject for a poll.

    We've now recently had 2 national championships, with Blackpool this weekend. I wonder how many of those winning or placed have taken lessons from non-Ceroc teachers. I would suggest the number would be fairly high?!?!?

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post

    There is a programme, the Cerocshop thing
    • Beginners 1 & 2
    • Beginners Plus
    • Intermediate One & Two
    • Style 1
    • Style 2


    But it's not like these workshops are heavily-promoted as being "required".

    And many of the other workshops are indeed ad-hoc, and seem to me to be more hype than substance.
    IMHO, Dips and Drops should be added to the above list as a workshop that SHOULD be attended. Most franchises (as far as I can see) run these on a reasonalby regular basis. I've seen too many nightmares on the dancefloor!!

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    IMHO, Dips and Drops should be added to the above list as a workshop that SHOULD be attended. Most franchises (as far as I can see) run these on a reasonalby regular basis. I've seen too many nightmares on the dancefloor!!
    Umm, I'm not sure that teaching more people how to do these things is a good idea.

    Unless the classes are basically only "don't do these socially. Ever." health&safety type courses... which I can't see people paying for.

    People don't listen to the safety announcements, no matter how much they're repeated.

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    Re: Is CEROC a Cult?

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    We've now recently had 2 national championships, with Blackpool this weekend. I wonder how many of those winning or placed have taken lessons from non-Ceroc teachers. I would suggest the number would be fairly high?!?!?

    I don't think it is possible to win at the Champs by just doing Ceroc classes. I reckon there should be a special category

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