Stop calling me a man!

[David Bailey]

I agree with this. In fact, the more I dance the less I find the actual act of sex "sexual"

That definitely falls into the "TMI" category.

I think this is correct. But I'm sticking to my guns that men should not line up as women because an embrace from a strange man might cause offence to other men and it's not what men signed up for. Rumours that you "have to dance with other guys at Andy's classes" might also cause me to lose income and that's much more important.

Have you considered occasional reverse-roles for the entire class? I do this all the time at the start of my classes. That removes the "social problem" of the occasional male follow / female lead, simply because everyone's doing it.

[Prian]

The teachers would need to make it clear at the beginning of the class that this is the situation and the resulting issues from leaders and followers choosing who to dance with in lessons would be a nightmare.

I know that it is very common for a lady who likes to lead (or as is the case sometimes, just bored in the beginners class, or just to make up the numbers), to stand in the the men's/lead line of the class. It doesn't appear that many people complain.

Has it happened in the reverse? A man joining in the follow's/ladies line. There would be huge complaints I am sure.

[Trouble]

I know that it is very common for a lady who likes to lead (or as is the case sometimes, just bored in the beginners class, or just to make up the numbers), to stand in the the men's/lead line of the class. It doesn't appear that many people complain.

Has it happened in the reverse? A man joining in the follow's/ladies line. There would be huge complaints I am sure.

i dont think there would be if they were good, when i do a mans line up, i usually get told by most women that im doing it better than the men anyway so they enjoy it., Where i do not think the beginners enjoy it is freestyle. I would only freestyle with dance buddies, not with newbies.

[Andy McGregor]

That definitely falls into the "TMI" category.

I'm afraid it's age related. The more I dance the older I get

Have you considered occasional reverse-roles for the entire class? I do this all the time at the start of my classes. That removes the "social problem" of the occasional male follow / female lead, simply because everyone's doing it.

I've done this from time to time. There's usually plenty of laughing but it's really a novelty and none of the men have become keen to follow as a result.

I think that most people who've done Modern Jive for more than a year or so don't even see dance as something to get good at. It's something they do and it makes them happy. Offering them the opportunity to improve by switching roles is irrelevant because they don't want to improve. They might want to learn the odd new move because they've "bored with their moves". But they don't want to become better dancers. To some extent they think learning new moves is becoming a better dancer.

[Trouble]

That definitely falls into the "TMI" category.

Im probably being completely stupid but TMI?

[straycat]

Im probably being completely stupid but TMI?

Too Much Information.

[Trouble]

Too Much Information.

yep, now i feel stupid... Durr

Thanks SC

[David Bailey]

Re: role reversal:

I've done this from time to time. There's usually plenty of laughing but it's really a novelty and none of the men have become keen to follow as a result.

The way I do it for Tango is to start with a walk, then swap roles for that walk, in practice hold, just as a small segment of the class. Maybe there's an equally-basic starting point which could work for a MJ class? I find it's really helpful to get students to do this - but again this is from an AT perspective.

I think that most people who've done Modern Jive for more than a year or so don't even see dance as something to get good at. It's something they do and it makes them happy. Offering them the opportunity to improve by switching roles is irrelevant because they don't want to improve. They might want to learn the odd new move because they've "bored with their moves". But they don't want to become better dancers. To some extent they think learning new moves is becoming a better dancer.

I blame the teacher.

[David Bailey]

yep, now i feel stupid... Durr

Thanks SC

I'm down with the kids, I am.

Cool. Wicked. Etc.

[t0mt0m]

Do most agree that the suitability is - yes maybe for a workshop as a piece within it. Something for those who want to learn more about dancing, in a more suitable situation. But not advised (for guys following, and not promoted for women to lead) in lesson? (Exceptions such as Brighton perhaps? Who knows - anyone been to Brighton classes?) Andy makes some great points about the practical side of things - whilst a female leading can make some ripples, at least generally it's accepted/not normally a cause of too many issues as it's a situation that occurs normally through unbalanced numbers (and the probability that many female followers could appreciate a good female lead's lead during a class, than male leads appreciating the following skills/dance with a male follower!) Male following could (in normal circumstances) cause a lot more disruption in a normal class. Anyone considering doing it in a normal class might want to balance their own interests, against the interests of the class as a whole, and the possible ramifications for the instructor/event owner. Is it seeing it as either a teaching aide & dance choice. I'd imagine there would be more women wanting to lead as a dance choice, than men doing following as a dance choice, and that guys do follow more likely for learning purposes? Other interesting point Andy mentioned - many folk who've been doing MJ for a while don't see dance as something to improve at, but rather something to just do & enjoy. Simply put - offering the opportunity to improve as a dancer by role-switch is irrelevant as many don't feel the need to improve. Best off only offering it to those who might be interested. Is it right to assume that as a female lead get's better, they'd get more respect as a lead/be less issues in class?

[robd]

Tell me t0mt0m, do you ever pause for breath when speaking?

[t0mt0m]

Hmm, can't see the edit function. I swear there were at least a paragraph structure when I wrote it. Jeepers it looks a bit too wafflycondensed eh robd

[David Bailey]

Do most agree that the suitability is - yes maybe for a workshop as a piece within it. Something for those who want to learn more about dancing, in a more suitable situation. But not advised (for guys following, and not promoted for women to lead) in lesson?

Why not?

Lessons are not social dancing. You're there to learn a skill. If the teacher says "reverse roles", with authority and confidence, then the students will, happily, reverse roles.

(Well, I say "happily", they may whinge about it, but in my experience, this is always because it's hard work or a bit scary, and never because it's Morally Wrong or whatever - in fact, it's usually the women who are less keen to be leads than the men are to be follows).

Anyone who may have any misgivings about it will not want to be an exception - in fact, the same fear of "standing out" that worries them about dancing with another man works for them this way.

And the other benefit of this is that, once you institutionalise it in a class as a regular occurrence, it helps balance numbers, because you find that you'll have a few people who are willing to take both lead and follow roles as required. I had 4 women over for my AT class, but 2 of the women simply swapped roles, so everyone got to learn, all of the time.

Of course, this does nothing to help in social situations, but that's another problem....

(Exceptions such as Brighton perhaps? Who knows - anyone been to Brighton classes?)

Blimey, what is it with you and Brighton?

Anyone considering doing it in a normal class might want to balance their own interests, against the interests of the class as a whole, and the possible ramifications for the instructor/event owner.

My own commercial interests tell me that my students will prefer to learn 100% of the time, instead of having to sit out / compete for partners and get stressed about being left out.

I did a AT class at Negracha's a couple of years ago, when there were simply 2 men over (out of a class of 40), and I was one of the guys - and the stupid teacher (not someone most will know!) didn't bother to move people round at all. So I spent literally half the class trying to get charity dances to learn - and I only got some because one nice couple saw my predicament and the man generously gave up half his time so I could dance with his partner. It was a horrible experience - in fact I gave up halfway through the class.

I would have far rather danced with a man (as a follow or lead) than sit it out, believe me.

I suspect many women have exactly the same experience and attitude. So it's in my own commercial interest to promote flexibility in roles.

Simply put - offering the opportunity to improve as a dancer by role-switch is irrelevant as many don't feel the need to improve.

I don't think that's true - I think many of the people going to classes are genuinely keen to learn. Even if they're not, it's fun to role-switch in classes - it breaks the ice, and it gets people talking and laughing, typically about how bad we all are at the other role.

Huh. This was going to be a short post...

[Maxine]

Do most agree that the suitability is - yes maybe for a workshop as a piece within it. Something for those who want to learn more about dancing, in a more suitable situation. But not advised (for guys following, and not promoted for women to lead) in lesson? (Exceptions such as Brighton perhaps?

Why?????? – As DB says it’s a lesson – classes and lessons are where one learns.

Why not?

Lessons are not social dancing. You're there to learn a skill. If the teacher says "reverse roles", with authority and confidence, then the students will, happily, reverse roles.

(Well, I say "happily", they may whinge about it, but in my experience, this is always because it's hard work or a bit scary, and never because it's Morally Wrong or whatever - in fact, it's usually the women who are less keen to be leads than the men are to be follows).

Yes including me – I hated doing the leading in AT my body seemed to be dyslexic

[David Bailey]

Why?????? – As DB says it’s a lesson – classes and lessons are where one learns.

To be fair, the line between "learning" and "social dancing" in MJ is a bit blurry - probably deliberately so, Because Learning To Dance Is Fun, or something... So I can understand why most MJ teachers don't, well, make it too hard.

it's only when I started doing AT that I personally started to understand the clear distinction between the two - it helps that Tango has distinct classes, practicas and milongas, that makes the difference clearer I think.

Yes including me – I hated doing the leading in AT my body seemed to be dyslexic

If it was easy, anyone could do it

If it's any consolation, leaders find following equally hard.

[David Bailey]

In other news, it appears that Alfons Haider (the inspiration for the "Bruno" character) will be dancing as a follower in the Austrian DWTS.

Hmmm.