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Thread: Stop calling me a man!

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    Robd, - you really should be promoted to moderator
    That would be a promotion?

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    That would be a promotion?
    I don't think so. It would be like working behind the bar at your local. Somebody's got to serve the drinks, but I don't want to do it tonight because it's a quiz night.

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkW View Post
    That would be great

    I should warn you that the standard in that competition is incredibly high
    You are so right MarkW, but JayJay is a briliiant follower so it's me that needs to put in most of the work. My game plan is: First of all doing 5k run in July (one of the nurses at work got me roped into that), but training for that should improve my stamina, go to weekly lessons as a lead and do some workshops at weekenders with JayJay, lastly try not to take it too seriously and have fun

    You were brilliant on Sunday by the way , I did write a long review but stupidly did it straight on the forum instead of cut and paste - result timed out and when I logged on again, all my review had gone. Went out and had fun instead of rewriting

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    MarkW (5th-May-2010)

  5. #84
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    DT, its a well known fact (on this forum) that Lou is a man
    ; ) Ah! That'll probably be why I don't get accused of being a raging raving lesbian!

    I hope DT continues with her journey to become a lead as it was a pleasure. Thanks for the dances, dearheart! I'll have to do a review of the night when I get back on the pc.

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Can't believe there are venues that are so anti-role reversal. The venues around me frequently have women learning to lead, mostly to address the constant imbalance we have with a shortage of men. Heck, even on nights where the balance is pretty equal, women still lead. Heck, I've seen a couple of women who lead double-trouble dances.

    And the hilarity when two of the guys dance together and one tries to lead the other... priceless! Some of them are pretty good, to their credit!

    So yes, if you're finding such opposition at your venue, it's time to start searching for a better venue. That surely isn't the norm??

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    ; ) Ah! That'll probably be why I don't get accused of being a raging raving lesbian!
    I wish I could say the same

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    Trouble (5th-May-2010)

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Mike View Post
    Can't believe there are venues that are so anti-role reversal. The venues around me frequently have women learning to lead, mostly to address the constant imbalance we have with a shortage of men. Heck, even on nights where the balance is pretty equal, women still lead. Heck, I've seen a couple of women who lead double-trouble dances.

    And the hilarity when two of the guys dance together and one tries to lead the other... priceless! Some of them are pretty good, to their credit!

    So yes, if you're finding such opposition at your venue, it's time to start searching for a better venue. That surely isn't the norm??
    I totally agree Mike.

    In fact as the girls learn to lead their following actually improves and vice versa when men learn to follow their leading improves.

    As for men dancing with men, I have done it a few times. Mostly with one James Crofts (now a teacher I believe), where i would lead and we would include a "half tumble." We were also lead in double trouble with his wife.

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Mike View Post
    Heck, even on nights where the balance is pretty equal, women still lead. Heck, I've seen a couple of women who lead double-trouble dances.


    So yes, if you're finding such opposition at your venue, it's time to start searching for a better venue. That surely isn't the norm??
    Heck DJM - why should she find somewhere else. Let them gripe, moan and be miserable..... My sister enjoys seeing them suck lemons more trust me.

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    My sister enjoys seeing them suck lemons more trust me.
    I see myself more as a crusader fighting against the oppresive Cheshunt regime.

    Although it does make me snigger to see all the lemon sucking going on.

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I notice that there's also two Fridays a month in Harlow run by the same people. Fancy a Funky Forum Friday? We could all agree on a particular Friday, agree on a dress code, all arrive at the same time and ...

    .. I'm not sure there are any other reasons, but we could, just possibly, dance all night.

    Now, what to wear? I do like nautical and have plenty of sailors outfits. I'm never wearing bondage again after I snapped my hamstring Medical sounds like fun. Sportswear is easy - bagsy GD. Or perhaps something really subtle and clever ...

    .. someone else will have to think of that.

    It's one hour 40 mins away from Brighton. Probably longer on a Friday. Still, it would be worth it just to be led by Double Trouble
    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Something sparkly, dear Andy!


    Totally! This world needs a funky forum Friday.
    I've looked at their website and created a thread with a poll. Take a look here.

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkW View Post
    My funniest experience of consumer power was when giving the review class in the days when there were four moves rather than three.
    Back where I were a-learnin' to jive, Mick and Phil at Cambridge (Mondays and Wednesday nights) were both perfectly capable of teaching four moves in 40 minutes AND making sure we learnt etiquette, style, alternatives (for dips, e.g.), and basic elements, as well as floor craft (not banging in to other dancers), and leading tips for male beginners. Plus, they both had stage presence in bucket loads. (Good job, really, as it was only 12" above the dance floor.)

    It wasn't until I moved away and went to other dance classes all over the country that I found other teachers who could hardly manage three moves in 50 minutes, let alone teaching style as well.

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Are three moves really all that is taught now? Is that beginners or intermediate or both?

    I really have been out of the scene for a while.

    I only ever knew 3 moves to be taught in the intermediate class and then only if things were running late or combination moves were included.

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    However, I'd actually stop a man from rotating with the women and learning to follow in my group lesson. This makes me sexist because I treat men and women differently. I'd say my reaction to a man lining up with the women would be more extreme than DT has experienced.

    The reason I'd react this way is because I'd run the risk of guys falling out in the lesson. I've seen it in the past in Brighton and guys were actually threatened "try to dance with me and I'll knock your block off" - very caveman! And others did the maths and dropped out rather than dance with another man.

    So my reaction isn't based on me being sexist, it's based on experience and common sense.
    Imagine a pub landlord puts up a 'no poofs' sign.
    "I've got nothing against the gays personally, it's just that all my customers are homophobic. If I let gays in here the customers would threaten to knock their blocks off. So my reaction isn't based on me being homophobic, it's based on experience and common sense."

    I don't think that would stand up in court, and I think you are opening yourself up to lawsuits.

    Most gay men wouldn't want to cause a fuss and so would either stick to same-sex classes or would dance as leads. But remember the case of the Christian B&B? The rumour was that Stonewall deliberately sent in gay customers (who wouldn't normally have gone there) in order to provoke a legal prosecution. I could easily see them doing the same for dance classes.

    I'm also amazed that feminist groups haven't sued Ceroc for their "the lady follows" commandment. It may not be actually enforced but it is on all their printed literature.

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by hafdhgdfa View Post

    I'm also amazed that feminist groups haven't sued Ceroc for their "the lady follows" commandment. It may not be actually enforced but it is on all their printed literature.
    Might be a bit hard to sue - certainly at any classes that I dance at - more than half the ladies I know are brilliant leaders and followers, and for that matter I don't think Franck ever actually says men and women, just leads and follows.

    Cheers WT

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by hafdhgdfa View Post
    But remember the case of the Christian B&B? The rumour was that Stonewall deliberately sent in gay customers (who wouldn't normally have gone there) in order to provoke a legal prosecution. I could easily see them doing the same for dance classes.
    I can't see it, really. It's not discrimination if gender is an inherent part of the "job spec".

    Quote Originally Posted by hafdhgdfa View Post
    I'm also amazed that feminist groups haven't sued Ceroc for their "the lady follows" commandment.
    I'm amazed that no-one's sued Ceroc for infringement of the trades description act - have they seen the average quality of following from ladies at a Ceroc night?

    By the way, welcome to the forum hafdhgdfa. That's an... interesting name you've got there

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    By the way, welcome to the forum hafdhgdfa. That's an... interesting name you've got there
    Sounds like a good Welsh name to me.

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    Lory (31st-January-2011)

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by hafdhgdfa View Post
    But remember the case of the Christian B&B? The rumour was that Stonewall deliberately sent in gay customers (who wouldn't normally have gone there) in order to provoke a legal prosecution. I could easily see them doing the same for dance classes.

    I'm also amazed that feminist groups haven't sued Ceroc for their "the lady follows" commandment. It may not be actually enforced but it is on all their printed literature.
    This guy's (I assume your a guy) is totally right. Dancing is one of the last remaining inherently sexist world's.

    How long till someone does try to legislate equality into it?

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by hafdhgdfa View Post
    Most gay men wouldn't want to cause a fuss and so would either stick to same-sex classes or would dance as leads. But remember the case of the Christian B&B? The rumour was that Stonewall deliberately sent in gay customers (who wouldn't normally have gone there) in order to provoke a legal prosecution. I could easily see them doing the same for dance classes.
    I can't. What a waste of time that would be. The B&B lawsuit was because a gay couple were shown the door, that has never been the case in any ceroc (or independant) class has it ? There is an expectation that different sexes dance with each other im some locations, in others, perhaps less so, that is surely up to the organiser to look for. There is nothing to stop couples standing out to practice, I have done so many times when practicing for a competition because I didnt want to dance with other people at all. You cant make other people dance with you and i have seen people drop out when someone they simply dont like dancing with comes round. It has to do with all sorts of preferences in who they want to get UCP with. I don't think a man or women not being comfortable dancing with the same sex is necessarily bigoted.

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    Prian (29th-January-2011)

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    I have danced with men on a number of occasions. Both leading and being lead. Admittedly it was just for fun, but nobody ever made comment (perhaps because they knew we were not serious, I don't know). Usually I did this in an Evangelical Church in South Kensington (on Fridays it was a Ceroc venue, but most of the dancers were church members).

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by hafdhgdfa View Post
    Imagine a pub landlord puts up a 'no poofs' sign.
    "I've got nothing against the gays personally, it's just that all my customers are homophobic. If I let gays in here the customers would threaten to knock their blocks off. So my reaction isn't based on me being homophobic, it's based on experience and common sense."

    I don't think that would stand up in court, and I think you are opening yourself up to lawsuits.

    Most gay men wouldn't want to cause a fuss and so would either stick to same-sex classes or would dance as leads. But remember the case of the Christian B&B? The rumour was that Stonewall deliberately sent in gay customers (who wouldn't normally have gone there) in order to provoke a legal prosecution. I could easily see them doing the same for dance classes.

    I'm also amazed that feminist groups haven't sued Ceroc for their "the lady follows" commandment. It may not be actually enforced but it is on all their printed literature.
    This shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation. There is a huge difference between drinking in the same building and holding someone in the embrace of the closed hold. I do not believe any judge or magistrate would uphold a complaint that a man or woman refused to embrace another member of same sex at a dance class - especially if that person was a total stranger. Furthermore, I do not believe that judgement would go against a dance teacher refused to let the situation arise where a man might be expected to embrace another man as part of his/her lesson.

    Firstly, I'd like to remind people that I was one half of the first same-sex couple to win a medal at a national modern jive competition. I am not against women learning to lead or men learning to follow. And I'm not against same sex couples. However, I am for choice. And I believe one of those choices is that men should be able to choose if they dance with another man. Allowing a man to line up as a follower removes this choice.

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