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Thread: Stop calling me a man!

  1. #21
    Registered User emmylou25's Avatar
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Sounds like a nightmare venue.

    Our venues tend to have a few ladies leading (mostly taxis), usually to even up numbers. I've never heard of anyone complaining out loud about ladies leading and most people are relieved they don't have to sit out and queue. However, I know that if there were men over I'd either swap and be a follower or sit out as generally I'm helping out rather than learning so i can be a great leader, but some of the younger girls who want to learn to lead their friends always lead whether it's men over or not, and it seems to be accepted.

    I've never known any females learning to lead going to the beginner review class - so I don't know how the beginners would find that, although i don't see that it would make much of a problem.

    I say stick with it - you've got as much right as anyone else to learn to lead, and let's face it, you'll probably end up a better leader than a lot of the men anyway...or that's generally what I get told when the class rotation is happening. Helps that females have a followers perspective of what sort of lead works for other followers. Men can often only guess whether they're giving too much or too little.

  2. #22
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    People can call me what they like, I know what I am.

  3. #23
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    You must try it
    its very relaxing not having to navigate
    I have tried it.

    I enjoy leading more.

    I do what I enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Mr Bailey is definately NOT a follower.
    TJMOSTT

  4. #24
    Senior Member rubyred's Avatar
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Stick your ground DT and don't let ingnorant people push you off the dance floor. Please give me a dance when I next see you on the dance floor.
    if you love the life you live then you'll get a lot more done

  5. #25
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Unfortunately I have learnt from experience that guys must not learn to follow in the lessons as it really does upset a high proportion of the guys.
    As a guy that's curious about what it's like to follow (and hopes that finding out would improve his leading) that's the biggest barrier. Where/how can a man learn to follow?

    The Manchester class I go to on Wednesdays usually has at least one, sometimes up to 4-5 ladies leading, so it's never seen as unusual and I've never heard anybody complain about it, and I've seen ladies leading at all the venues I've visited (erm, all four of them) so to me it's a "normal" thing.

    Men following seems far more rare, and tends to only be the 'good' dancers, and in freestyle. I've never seen a man following in classes, and haven't seen two men dancing together yet (except on Youtube - I think it was Jordan and Ben doing WCS).

  6. #26
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    So, I’m learning to lead, or as they continually annoyingly say at my local class I’m learning to be a man.

    I’ve gotta say, the amount of resistance I’ve received from the teachers and some of the men has been bordering on unacceptable. Funnily enough, the women I’m dancing with seem perfectly fine with it and some have said I’m the best man in the room. (I think that’s supposed to be a compliment).

    ...

    Even the organiser is looking at me with suspicion. Gav thinks the organiser suspects I’m using his classes to learn to lead so I can be a dance teacher elsewhere. I’m not, but even if I was, what difference does it make?

    I don’t want to give up learning to lead. I’m really enjoying it, but I’m starting to get the hump with the ignorant comments. Hopefully they’ll stop when they realise I’m not giving up trying.
    So you learning to lead at that venue may be good for you but bad news for other people at that venue.

    Just because it is bad news for others doesn't mean they're bigoted, neanderthal or ignorant.

    Why not simply go elsewhere where it causes others less difficulties, or choose a day where it is less bad news for others (for example when there are ladies over), rather than getting the hump.

  7. #27
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I've gotta say, you're learning in the wrong dance form. And possibly in the wrong venue.

    I spent 2 hours on Sunday being a follow, and regularly teach and learn role-reverse, in Tango; no-one bats an eye. I and they are there to learn, not to make dumbass comments about sexuality.

    That said, I'd probably never dance as a follow in a milonga.
    I agree with this. People are always learning the other role in tango. I think it's very good for your dancing.

    However. I have no problem with teachers calling the leads men and followers ladies.

    I don't think people should have to change everything they do and say to accomodate the minority.

    One of my tango teachers calls all the leads 'lads', even though he'll ask you to demonstrate the move on him and then turn you round and show you how your doing it wrong.

    And also my female ballroom teacher; when teaching as a man always used to say 'and guy's (referring to herself) this is our bit'.

    Apart from that good luck.

  8. #28
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    So you learning to lead at that venue may be good for you but bad news for other people at that venue.

    Just because it is bad news for others doesn't mean they're bigoted, neanderthal or ignorant.

    Why not simply go elsewhere where it causes others less difficulties, or choose a day where it is less bad news for others (for example when there are ladies over), rather than getting the hump.
    That's closed-minded in itself!

    We've all paid our money, so as long as we don't break any rules we can do what we like, including choosing who we dance with; however, that doesn't give anyone the right to be rude or stroppy just because someone is doing things differently to them.

  9. #29
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    I've never seen a man following in classes, and haven't seen two men dancing together yet (except on Youtube - I think it was Jordan and Ben doing WCS).
    You've never seen two guys dancing together as erotically as possible, in order to freak each other out. You haven't lived. It's totally gross.

  10. #30
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    That's closed-minded in itself!
    Really ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    We've all paid our money, so as long as we don't break any rules we can do what we like, including choosing who we dance with; however, that doesn't give anyone the right to be rude or stroppy just because someone is doing things differently to them.
    Well it doesn't justify references to sexual preferences. Stroppy is debatable.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    You've never seen two guys dancing together as erotically as possible, in order to freak each other out. You haven't lived. It's totally gross.
    No rules against this. After all they've paid their money.

  11. #31
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Really ?.
    Of course it is.

    are you missing the point? if DT wants to lead in a class where both lead and follow are taught, she has every right to have a bit of a moan when she gets the spanish bleedin' inquisition because of it.

    I think neanderthal is fair for that guy that went off in the huff.

  12. #32
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I think neanderthal is fair for that guy that went off in the huff.
    Unfortunately we all have a cave dweller hidden in there somewhere. Even the women!

    I wouldn't react badly if a woman wanted to lead. We had a woman join in and lead in tonight's lesson and I was delighted that we went down from 3 women over to 1 woman over.

    However, I'd actually stop a man from rotating with the women and learning to follow in my group lesson. This makes me sexist because I treat men and women differently. I'd say my reaction to a man lining up with the women would be more extreme than DT has experienced.

    The reason I'd react this way is because I'd run the risk of guys falling out in the lesson. I've seen it in the past in Brighton and guys were actually threatened "try to dance with me and I'll knock your block off" - very caveman! And others did the maths and dropped out rather than dance with another man.

    So my reaction isn't based on me being sexist, it's based on experience and common sense.

    Having said all that, earlier tonight I was asked to teach a guy to follow and was delighted to help - I even did a lift with him, just to prove I'm manly

  13. #33
    Registered User emmylou25's Avatar
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by cederic View Post
    As a guy that's curious about what it's like to follow (and hopes that finding out would improve his leading) that's the biggest barrier. Where/how can a man learn to follow?
    Men following in a class is much more likely to cause uproar than ladies leading, and personally I'd get a bit peeved if there weren't enough men to go round all the ladies, which then wasn't helped further by a man following (my view would be the same if ladies were leading when there were men over - makes common sense to balance out the numbers as much as possible).

    What i've seen when men want to follow is that generally they'll either switch roles with their OH so they teach each other the reverse role (in freestyle), or they'll ask a female leader to lead them. One guy I know was advised to learn to follow to help his styling (not sure how it would help with that, but can be good from an improving the lead aspect), so asked me to help him do the class as a fixed couple with him following. I was happy to do that, we stayed out of the way of the class, and because it's not man on man, people who may have been offended wouldn't have been impacted, and probably wouldn't have noticed.

    So I'd say, find a female lead if you want to learn to follow in a class situation.

  14. #34
    Registered User Phil_dB's Avatar
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    Men following in a class is much more likely to cause uproar than ladies leading, and personally I'd get a bit peeved if there weren't enough men to go round all the ladies, which then wasn't helped further by a man following (my view would be the same if ladies were leading when there were men over - makes common sense to balance out the numbers as much as possible).

    What i've seen when men want to follow is that generally they'll either switch roles with their OH so they teach each other the reverse role (in freestyle), or they'll ask a female leader to lead them.
    Yes, that's the only times when i've followed in MJ

    I'd love to spend an entire evening as an MJ Follower, class & freestyle , - just to see what life is like from the other side, - and experience for myself what i've heard so much about...


    I've only recently started wcs, but in this short amount of time i've wcs danced with 5x as many men as I have in my year and a half doing MJ. No-one seems to care, - I certainly dont ("and i'm straight as an arrow, mate") I guess it's the difference in attitude between people who love dance, & people who are purely out for social reasons. Saying that, - there's nothing wrong with being social with other blokes.

    I was thankful the other night when a couple of the men could, and were willing to follow during a class,... else it would've meant TWO men on"!!! ... **** that !!!!

    Which leads me to another babbling observation, - I think women get to know other women more easily because of the time they spend queuing in class when outside the rotation, - men don't have to wait very often, and many spend their freestyle time freestyling, - so don't get to know other blokes as well as the women get to know other women. See girls, every cloud & all that!

  15. #35
    Registered User MarkW's Avatar
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    ...

    Which leads me to another babbling observation, - I think women get to know other women more easily because of the time they spend queuing in class when outside the rotation, - men don't have to wait very often, and many spend their freestyle time freestyling, - so don't get to know other blokes as well as the women get to know other women. See girls, every cloud & all that!
    And I think they chat more during the freestyle parts of the evening as well, particularly if there are women over. I have also noticed that the women tend to know each other a bit better than the the men know each other. (Some women have said in passing that they know the men better than the women though.) It's probably a combination of a slightly greater tendency for women to chat than men combined with more opportunity for women to chat together when there are women over. If two men are chatting and there's women over it normally doesn't take long for a woman to walk over and break up the boy on boy action.

    Anyway ... back on topic so as not to incur the wrath of DT ... just about everywhere I've danced in the last ten years it has been quite normal to see women leading. I taxi and have had two women in total doing the leading in the review over the years - so that's a very small number but it has happened. It wasn't an issue for me or anyone else even when one week there were men over in the review session - the lady in question still did the leading and the men moved on quite happily.

    So, I think DT has found an atypical venue.

  16. #36
    Registered User daveb9000's Avatar
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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    During the Chistmas period not long after I started Ceroc our regular class night did a 'fun class' where ALL the women lead and ALL the men followed, this was really good fun (especially as I won the prize for being the best 'lady-boy' ) - maybe it's something that could be done more often.

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    choose a day where it is less bad news for others (for example when there are ladies over)

    1. I don't have a crystal ball so I couldn't possibly chose a day when I know whether there will be ladies over or not.

    2. The both times there have been men over, there have been late comers joining in and on both occasions ended up being ladies over in the end. Would you suggest that I start off as a follower and change over to leading if and when more ladies turn up and join in?

    3. I asked permission from the organiser to learn to lead and he didn't object, so as far as I'm concerned, I've paid my 8 quid and I can lead if I want.

    4. It's "bad news" for a few blokes and the demonstrators who have to switch off auto pilot once in a while and rotate the men, but everyone else, in particular the ladies are very positive and encouraging about it.

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    I started writing this and realised it sounds a bit strange but one of the things I like about having to follow when my wife leads is I get to do all the hijacks she normally pulls on me back to her. A dish best served cold, when she's not expecting it.

    First move push off's, shoulder slide stop and blocks, basket duck unders.... (where's the evil grinning smiley? )

    Down our way (Twyford, Newbury - there are a lot of female taxi's who dance male and female parts.). Usually both sets of taxi's are quite happy to dance both parts if you ask us (after our time with the beginners finishes).

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I've paid my 8 quid and I can lead if I want.
    Eight quid! For that you can have sex with me*

    *That does mean I'd be getting paid at the rate of £9,600 an hour

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    Re: Stop calling me a man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    So, I’m learning to lead, or as they continually annoyingly say at my local class I’m learning to be a man.

    I’ve gotta say, the amount of resistance I’ve received from the teachers and some of the men has been bordering on unacceptable. Funnily enough, the women I’m dancing with seem perfectly fine with it and some have said I’m the best man in the room. (I think that’s supposed to be a compliment).

    To name a few, these are some of the comments I’ve received from teachers and men.

    Week 1

    Male demonstrator “Why are you learning to be a man?”
    Me “Because I’m bored of following and wanted to learn something new…by the way, I’m not learning to be a man, I’m learning to lead”
    Male demonstrator “Of course you do realise that all the women in the room think you’re a raving lesbian”
    Me “Have any of the women actually said that?”
    Male demonstrator “No, I just know that’s what they will be thinking”

    Week 2

    Female Demonstrator “You’re on the wrong side”
    Me “No I’m learning to lead”
    Female demonstrator “Why do you want to be a man? If you lead they’ll be men over and they’ll get all confused”
    Followed by unnecessary tutting and huffing as she has to move ONE man round.

    Week 3

    Men over again so I’m sitting down waiting for the rotation to take my turn as a lead. A man comes over and offers me his hand, thinking I’m a follower waiting for a leader.

    Me “It’s men over, not women, I’m leading”
    Man “Well get up then and then you won’t have to be a man, you can be a woman”
    Me “No thanks, I’m learning to lead, you’ll have to join me in the queue”
    Man looks at me with disgust “Oh suit your bloody self then” and sods off to the bar outraged that for the first time in years there are men over and refuses to join in.


    Even the organiser is looking at me with suspicion. Gav thinks the organiser suspects I’m using his classes to learn to lead so I can be a dance teacher elsewhere. I’m not, but even if I was, what difference does it make?

    I don’t want to give up learning to lead. I’m really enjoying it, but I’m starting to get the hump with the ignorant comments. Hopefully they’ll stop when they realise I’m not giving up trying.
    If a man is lead by a woman does that make him a raving poof?

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