Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

[David Bailey]

when I asked if I could try intermediates he said it was up to me if I felt good enough - good teaching in my book.

That seems a bit weird to me.

Unless he already knew your capabilities and was saying something like "you're technically able to do the class, but it's up to you if you feel confident enough"?

I think that's a bit too laid-back for me - I'd give more definite direction.

[David Bailey]

You're right Andy, too little information there. I should have said I'm foolish to have wasted the last couple of years going to West Coast Swing classes thinking it's a great dance style taught by great teachers and that the more effort you put in both learning the dance and getting to know the people the more friendly they become and rewarding the dancing gets.

Well, at least you've learnt your lesson now.

See? That's how you do sarcasm.

But know I realise - because you've said so - that the dancers are befuddled at best, snobbish at worst and the teachers are only semi-competent. The music's probably dreadful too, no?

I'm confused too. Can you just remind me how many West Coast classes you have personally done and when the last one was.

Thanks

Apart from having a go at Andy - of course, a laudable aim in itself - do you have any comment on the, you know, topic?

[David Bailey]

And I don't think it makes you popular to start swearing on here in your second post.

Yeah.

You need at least 5.

[Andy McGregor]

Apart from having a go at Andy - of course, a laudable aim in itself - do you have any comment on the, you know, topic?

I think nomoves wants to be swear about people who do WCS, be rude to me and, erm, know how many WCS lessons I've had. They do seem odd reasons for joining a Modern Jive forum

[David Bailey]

I think nomoves wants to be swear about people who do WCS, be rude to me and, erm, know how many WCS lessons I've had. They do seem odd reasons for joining a Modern Jive forum

Well, the third one is, yes.

[Minnie M]

You're right Andy, too little information there. I should have said I'm foolish to have wasted the last couple of years going to West Coast Swing classes thinking it's a great dance style taught by great teachers and that the more effort you put in both learning the dance and getting to know the people the more friendly they become and rewarding the dancing gets.

But know I realise - because you've said so - that the dancers are befuddled at best, snobbish at worst and the teachers are only semi-competent. The music's probably dreadful too, no?

I'm confused too. Can you just remind me how many West Coast classes you have personally done and when the last one was.

Thanks

I don't think I've said those things. The most recent criticism of WCS was this one.

And I don't think it makes you popular to start swearing on here in your second post.

hmmmmmmmmm............. know what you nmean Andy

- what do they say about sarcasm

In the words of the famous BB celeb Nicky Graham ..........

who is she, who is she, who is she

[Bubble]

Is West Coast Swing made too hard?

From an earlier post on the 'How to get into WCS?' thread:

The very first step is to have facial botox treatment to stop you smiling by accident

There's two versions of WCS. The one where you simply dance with a look of concentration and the one where you dance with a look of constipation

Advanced WCS dancers can be easily spotted when they walk through the door at MJ dances because they look like they've just smelt something horrible

My own, personal, opinion is that WCS is a great social dance that's somehow been hijacked by a group of dance snobs who think it's all about competing.

They're not all snobs and there's plenty of nice people dancing WCS. They nice ones must have very thick skins or have some other method of rising above the other stuff that seems to come with WCS.

My advice is to get some private WCS lessons before you start. After half a dozen lessons you won't feel completely useless at your first group class and will be able to join in with the social dancing.

If what Andy says is really true, then:

The Botox will cost an absolute fortune, is painful, and will need to be redone at regular intervals to maintain the Advanced-WCS-Dancer image.

If you ever get to the point where you don't wear a look of extreme concentration, you'll be forced to go onto Smack, or some other constipation inducing drug to give you the requisite look-of-constipation while dancing WCS.

You'll need to spend hours in front of the mirror, smelling something absolutely vile, while practicing your 'smelt-something-horrible' face to make a grand entrance at all the MJ events.

Phew, that's definately enough to put me off WCS!!!!

[Minnie M]

Oh dear this thread (like most CF threads) seems to have lost its way a little

Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

In answer to the above, the thread question - IMO as a veteran of the dance (10 years+)

It depends who teaches it and what they are teaching

[nomoves]

OK, if anyone was genuinely offended by a largely deleted swearword, then I apologise and my tone was indeed sarcastic, which I appreciate is not to everyone's taste.

However, it made me a little bit grumpy to see that Andy ignored the parts of Graham W's post that praised the teacher and the demos at a workshop and picked out only the part that said some of the followers were "mystifying" the dance.

He then presented Graham's opinion - which he is quite entitled to - as fact saying "it's so right". I'm not saying Graham's wrong but how do you know he's right Andy, were you there? There's a similar example on the first page of this thread of Andy seizing on a comment about West Coast and stating as a fact that it proves West Coast is "anti-social with beginners" adding "so there you have it". I'm sorry but I'm not going to trawl through nine pages of posts finding other examples. But thanks to Bubble I now don't really need to.

My general point is if you fancy trying West Coast go to a class or a workshop and see for yourself - don't be put off by other people's prejudices. You'll find lots of different kinds of people at lots of different levels of ability and if you keep going back the dancing will more than likely get easier and more fun and the people friendlier. Er ... that's it.

However, the question remains Andy, how many West Coast classes have you done and when was the last one?

[Andy McGregor]

However, the question remains Andy, how many West Coast classes have you done and when was the last one?

What point is nomoves trying to make and an apology for swearing doesn't mean he/she hasn't sworn - just that they've realised they made a mistake that made them look bad. This would be a reasonable question if I was claiming to have attended many WCS classes. However, my only claim on this thead is that I've heard people say they are finding WCS too hard.

My observations about WCS being hijacked by dance snobs and serious/single-minded competitors are based on experiences I've had with WCS dancers attending MJ events.

I do not attend WCS classes any more and do not have the time to do so. I have attened WCS classes at weekenders and many years ago actually attended Paul Warden's classes in Bisley - on one occasion we chatted about shoes for ages and he seems a really nice person.

I thought I was being helpful in passing on what I'd heard dancers say about WCS classes. However, it seems that some WCS dancers have joined this MJ forum to have a go at me. Nomoves has done nothing but post to criticise me. Come on nomoves, how many MJ classes have you attended and why are you posting on a MJ dance forum? And, while we're at it, who are you?

[Minnie M]

........And, while we're at it, who are you?

Actually I'm curious too we don't even know if you are male or female (leading is much harder than follow in WCS) or which area you are from (which depends on who your WCS teachers are)

The Westie Hotshots (which I got slated for calling them that a couple of years ago on a previous thread) all came from the London area - have to say most of that lot are now well respected and great dancers (real hotshots )

[David Bailey]

my tone was indeed sarcastic, which I appreciate is not to everyone's taste.

It's absolutely to my taste. In fact, that's my default mode. But sarcasm needs to be done well.

However, it made me a little bit grumpy to see that Andy ignored the parts of Graham W's post that praised the teacher and the demos at a workshop and picked out only the part that said some of the followers were "mystifying" the dance.

Possibly because Andy found that part the most interesting and worthy of comment / discussion?

I like the word "mystifying", at least as a concept, it's a nice description.

My general point is if you fancy trying West Coast go to a class or a workshop and see for yourself - don't be put off by other people's prejudices.

Andy's clearly got some issues with WCS. That doesn't make him totally wrong.

There's pretty much a consensus here, that there can be friction when WCS and MJ dancers mingle - more so than other dance forms. There've been dozens of threads about it. Pretending that there is no such friction, and pretending that any observations along those lines are simply due to one person's prejudices, is wrong.

For example, I've experienced snootiness from some WCS-ers. That doesn't make me anti-WCS dancers, my lovely Tango practice partner is a WCS teacher, but that doesn't mean there's no snootiness from some people.

Andy's simply looking at another angle of this wide topic.

You'll find lots of different kinds of people at lots of different levels of ability and if you keep going back the dancing will more than likely get easier and more fun and the people friendlier. Er ... that's it.

And that applies to all dance forms, and in fact to all forms of social activity including going to your local pub. So that's not actually saying anything.

The question is, whether WCS is more "snooty" as a scene relative to MJ; and if so, why?

Or, "Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?"

[nomoves]

(Sorry David, I was writing the following answer before you put your last post up, which I've just seen)

Ok Andy, I'm Bill Addison, dance in Twickenham mainly but lots of other places too and am certainly not a hotshot - as I always tell Paul Warden, I'm one of his remedial students.

How many jive classes have I done? Well, I took my first one in about 1992, so I'm not sure if it actually would be a thousand but it wouldn't be far short. But I don't really do jive any more and that wasn't what my posts were about. I still go to Ceroc weekenders though.

Do other people on the forum know me - plenty of them, I imagine. Do I know Lee Bartholomew (Woodface - nice one Andy, not offensive at all)? I'd recognise him, but we've never spoken.

I'm happy to admit that I've only posted to have a go at you Andy because you have seized repeatedly seized on negative comments that people writing on the forum have about West Coast and presented these opinions as fact while ignoring positive comments.

Do I have an agenda? I run an occasional freestyle in Tooting as a hobby but have personally never made a penny out of West Coast.

Do you have an agenda? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you run jive classes in an area which now has three or four outfits teaching West Coast. Hmm, I wonder.

[Gerry]

(Sorry David, I was writing the following answer before you put your last post up, which I've just seen)

Ok Andy, I'm Bill Addison, dance in Twickenham mainly but lots of other places too and am certainly not a hotshot - as I always tell Paul Warden, I'm one of his remedial students.

How many jive classes have I done? Well, I took my first one in about 1992, so I'm not sure if it actually would be a thousand but it wouldn't be far short. But I don't really do jive any more and that wasn't what my posts were about. I still go to Ceroc weekenders though.

Do other people on the forum know me - plenty of them, I imagine. Do I know Lee Bartholomew (Woodface - nice one Andy, not offensive at all)? I'd recognise him, but we've never spoken.

I'm happy to admit that I've only posted to have a go at you Andy because you have seized repeatedly seized on negative comments that people writing on the forum have about West Coast and presented these opinions as fact while ignoring positive comments.

Do I have an agenda? I run an occasional freestyle in Tooting as a hobby but have personally never made a penny out of West Coast.

Do you have an agenda? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you run jive classes in an area which now has three or four outfits teaching West Coast. Hmm, I wonder.

Nice one Bill.

IMHO you won't find a nicer guy than our Bill

Lastly Amensia is a cracking event that will get stronger and stronger

[jive-vee]

(Sorry David, I was writing the following answer before you put your last post up, which I've just seen)

Ok Andy, I'm Bill Addison, dance in Twickenham mainly but lots of other places too and am certainly not a hotshot - as I always tell Paul Warden, I'm one of his remedial students.

How many jive classes have I done? Well, I took my first one in about 1992, so I'm not sure if it actually would be a thousand but it wouldn't be far short. But I don't really do jive any more and that wasn't what my posts were about. I still go to Ceroc weekenders though.

Do other people on the forum know me - plenty of them, I imagine. Do I know Lee Bartholomew (Woodface - nice one Andy, not offensive at all)? I'd recognise him, but we've never spoken.

I'm happy to admit that I've only posted to have a go at you Andy because you have seized repeatedly seized on negative comments that people writing on the forum have about West Coast and presented these opinions as fact while ignoring positive comments.

Do I have an agenda? I run an occasional freestyle in Tooting as a hobby but have personally never made a penny out of West Coast.

Do you have an agenda? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you run jive classes in an area which now has three or four outfits teaching West Coast. Hmm, I wonder.

Hi Bill, nice to see you on here.

[David Franklin]

For example, I've experienced snootiness from some WCS-ers.

And, as a tango dancer, I assume you looked at them and thought "These WCS punks trying to be snooty, they make me laugh. They wouldn't last 5 minutes at Negracha's".

[Dottie]

Hi Bill, nice to see you on here.

Hi Bill!

[Andy McGregor]

Ok Andy, I'm Bill Addison, dance in Twickenham mainly but lots of other places too and am certainly not a hotshot - as I always tell Paul Warden, I'm one of his remedial students.

Thanks Bill. You sound like a nice guy now we've been introduced.

I'm happy to admit that I've only posted to have a go at you Andy because you have seized repeatedly seized on negative comments that people writing on the forum have about West Coast and presented these opinions as fact while ignoring positive comments.

I selected posts that support my premise. It's what everyone does. You are welcome to disagree with my posts and I might answer your posts. Hang on, that's what I am doing

Do you have an agenda? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you run jive classes in an area which now has three or four outfits teaching West Coast. Hmm, I wonder.

I do not lose students to WCS classes. However, some of my students have tried WCS and some of them told me the story which started this thread. As I said, I've nothing against any dance. All dancing is good. We get people coming to our classes who've tried other dances, including WCS and we get people from our classes trying other dances. It's a free market economy and dancers are free to go where they like.

I do have a problem with people doing WCS at crowded MJ freestyles. I also have a problem with people doing Lindy, Foxtrot, cha cha cha, etc. I believe that a floor should have one dance at a time when it's busy.

It seems to me that some people do not like to read any feedback that's not luvvified. If all we did was say "lovely dahlink" there is a good chance that nothing would change. It's the negative feedback that is more likely to cause change and I simply passed on some negative feedback - but some people see an "agenda" in everything. Sometimes people just mean what they say or write.

And some people think that they can introduce themselves to a new forum start swearing and get away with it by saying "oops, sorry". We must always remember this equation;

rudeness + apology≠good manners

[Dottie]

Was going to post but changed my mind.......

[Ickle Sue]

Hi Bill, nice to see you on here.

Hello Bill, I really want to get to one of your freestyles in the near future (may have to chat to Karen to see when she is attending).