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Thread: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

  1. #101
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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I’m not suggesting that a teacher should write off comments along these lines out of hand, but one does have to question ones sources as well. Recently a local MJ teacher friend of mine put out a feedback survey on her advanced class, and in particular the re-inclusion of footwork after a hiatus in the Ceroc syllabus here for about a year. Most of the class liked it, a few didn’t feel all that strongly either way but only two* didn’t like it. They were also (most likely, as they were in the class at the time) the only two who complained about it to the studio manager previously, which prompted the feedback survey in the first place.....
    And this example for me shows what the issue is with any dance class and teacher - even if the teacher is good and teaching to an appropriate level for the majority of people, there's always going to be a couple of people who find it too hard...they may want to learn and just take longer for it to click, or in the case of the main ceroc venue I go to, the 2 people who complain about things being too hard or too complicated, are the 2 people who are the most disruptive, don't listen, don't follow up with the teacher afterwards, talk, and don't seem to want to learn seriously. Put them in a WCS environment and they'd be unlikely to ever find it straightforward or want to because you do need to listen & learn for the basic lead & follow technique. And chances are those people who find it hard are usually the ones who tell people it's hard...how often do you hear people say it's easy. The teacher has to go at a pace & teach the way it works for the majority.

    Personally, I like learning the technical side of dancing and that's what i'm good at picking up quickly & easily. But it's the confidence to experiment, play & grow on the freestyle & social side that I found harder, and that's not something that can necessarily be taught - but luckily the class I go to is the kind of environment with teacher/better dancers who're willing to support & dance with everyone which means i've been able to practise that side of things.

    I get the same class as the others who go there, but I know of 1 guy who finds it hard...IMO because he turns up late for beginners, and talks to the followers rotating round the class all the time while the teacher's talking, then doesn't learn the technique that will help him not only in WCS, but also the other dance styles he's learning.

    The 'it's made too hard' can be said about any dance style by anyone who finds it difficult and doesn't want to look at their learning style/requirements...I think what makes learning dancing easier is by finding a teacher whose style works for you. At the moment, WCS venue availability is still fairly limited which makes it harder, but that doesn't mean the dance itself is made too hard.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    I know of 1 guy who finds it hard...IMO because he turns up late for beginners, and talks to the followers rotating round the class all the time while the teacher's talking, then doesn't learn the technique that will help him not only in WCS, but also the other dance styles he's learning.
    We get guys like this at our classes. I take them to one side for a quiet word in their ear. I ask them politely to change how they behave in the lessons as they are holding things up for the others. Sometimes they come back and join in nicely and sometimes they don't come back. I'd prefer the former, but he latter solution still solves the problem. I even think it's right for business as nobody wants people like that at their dance class.

  3. #103

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    I have really enjoyed reading this thread.

    And my answer to the question posed would be..no WCS is not 'made too hard'.

    Modern Jive is huge in the UK and this is because it is a very accessable dance to all. People who havnt danced before can go to any MJ night or class, have lots of fun and can dance almost immediately socially.

    With WCS its not that simple. It would be just like going to a ballroom class and expecting to dance socially and competantly in the same night which in general is unlikely to happen. So why do people expect to pick WCS up just as easily as MJ? MJ has been used as a platform to promote wcs to the masses which is great for the wcs community but just like many other couple dances (ie ballroom) you have to keep at it, develop and nail the basic teqnique.

    People seem to be put off wcs because its too technical or hard or poncy but you have to remember wcs has such a different look and feel compared to modern jive (which is why many people love it)that you have to learn the techniques to form that shape, that feel! Just like latin has a different shape and feel from the foxtrot.Or nightclub 2step is different to country 2step.

    As for the comment about wcs dancers not being very friendly to beginners well lets face it wcs is relitively new (or re-newed) in the uk and everyone wants to improve!So what do you do...?Dance at the same level or higher!That is how you will improve your dance. So beginners...hear me out...ask the better dancers to dance..do not be intimidated. You can guarantee they will be learning just as much as you.

    I do agree that if teachers want to promote their dance they should ensure that all levels dance with one another and make their club friendly. Give it time.

    Now, ive heard talk about wcs being a competition dance..well..it is!!BUT JUst as much as MJ is.WCS can be a social dance and in the states its more social than comp BUT ALSO you have to know that the wcs exposure we have had from outside this country is from...low and behold..the BIG competitiors from the US. THe PRO's.So the phrase monkey see monkey do or just dancers who love what they see in competition copying into their social dancing or teaching.

    As a wcs dancer, teacher, competitor, student, linedancer, jiver and all round dance lover i know where everyone is coming from on this thread but leave the neg feeling and let the dance grow..you will see...and make sure your there when it does! It is a great dance and the feeling you get after a good lead/follow is worth the hard work at the beginning.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by angelblue View Post

    I do agree that if teachers want to promote their dance they should ensure that all levels dance with one another

    How can teachers ensure this?

    Not too long ago, after the lesson just before freestyle, the teacher made announcement to everyone saying that there were new faces here and told everyone to dance with everyone, not just the people they knew.

    I then observed most of the same old faces dancing with the same old faces..., as for the teacher who made the announcement.. well, I'd describe her as probably the least social dancer in the room

    Why not lead by example, & practice what you preach? Strange.

  5. #105

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Your dead right!!

    I would have half hour of 'dance with someone youve never danced with before' time

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    Why not lead by example, & practice what you preach? Strange.


    My guess is that the teacher was saying that her students should dance with each other. That doesn't include her. She is the teacher. Some teachers are special and other teachers have needs that are special

    I think that it is essential that the teacher should make a real effort to dance with all his/her students and give individual tips. My advice is to find another class where the teacher gets around their students during the freestyle. This teacher is obviously as "stage" teacher who thinks their work is done when the group lesson ends - I'd say it was just beginning.

    Only yesterday I was chatting with another MJ teacher. We'd both done the same thing recently. The end of the night was looming and we'd not danced with 3 women. We both ran over so we could dance with those ladies we'd missed.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    On the subject of the title of the thread - quote from Samantha Buckwalter who did some lovely classes at Scorch this weekend... "this dance is NOT hard"!!!!

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by angelblue View Post
    With WCS its not that simple. It would be just like going to a ballroom class and expecting to dance socially and competantly in the same night which in general is unlikely to happen.
    I can get people to dance tango socially after an hour's lesson.

    They won't be doing it well, of course, and they won't be doing much more than walking around the room (but then, I don't usually do much more than walking around the room when dancing Tango socially).

    So why not aim to get people dancing WCS, as soon as possible? Ideally, after the first class? Is it simply not possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by angelblue View Post
    As a wcs dancer, teacher, competitor, student, linedancer, jiver and all round dance lover i know where everyone is coming from on this thread but leave the neg feeling and let the dance grow..you will see...and make sure your there when it does! It is a great dance and the feeling you get after a good lead/follow is worth the hard work at the beginning.
    Snoot

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    On the subject of the title of the thread - quote from Samantha Buckwalter who did some lovely classes at Scorch this weekend... "this dance is NOT hard"!!!!
    Absolutely what I'm saying. It's being made too hard by some teachers and that is putting off some students.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    How can teachers ensure this?

    Not too long ago, after the lesson just before freestyle, the teacher made announcement to everyone saying that there were new faces here and told everyone to dance with everyone, not just the people they knew.

    I then observed most of the same old faces dancing with the same old faces..., as for the teacher who made the announcement.. well, I'd describe her as probably the least social dancer in the room

    Why not lead by example, & practice what you preach? Strange.
    I was at the same event as you and though I wouldn't have phrased what was said in the same way as you have the general principle is right. I did seek out a number of people I'd not danced with previously as well as 'the same old faces' whom I only happen to see once or twice per month (and therefore am going to make the effort to dance with when I do see them) I'm not posting to debate the success or otherwise of the announcement as that ends up being a pretty circular argument around whether a group of friends is a clique, blah, blah. What I did want to point out is that at the freestyle I had been to a week or so before the very same teacher spent pretty much the whole night on the floor seeking out and dancing with leaders of all experience and ability levels.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    My guess is that the teacher was saying that her students should dance with each other. That doesn't include her. She is the teacher. Some teachers are special and other teachers have needs that are special
    All dancers are equal; but some dancers are more equal than other dancers

    I've seen various ideas to try and get dancers to mingle:

    1. Hand out free raffle tickets to the dancers, one half to leaders the other half to followers. Each dancer has to find the leader/follower with the same ticket number to enter the raffle. I'm not sure it worked very well, I even had one dancer come up to me, just wanted to know my ticket number, no request for a dance, or anything. I told them I wasn't divulging my ticket number without a dance.

    2. Get everyone in place for intermediates, then, instead of starting the class immediately, have a brief freestyle session. Play music enough for maybe 8 moves then stop the music, rotate partners and repeat 4-5 times. Hopefully people will seek out some of their mini-freestyle partners later for a proper dance. A side effect of this method is that it weeds out leaders that haven't yet spent enough time learning the beginners moves.

    3. Have a policy of one track of freestyle with your current partner at the end of the intermediates class. In my experience this doesn't work very well, a lot of people just wander off as soon as it's apparent that the class is over; a bit rude, but lots of people do it.



    Now, back to the original question, is WCS made too hard?

    My guess is that a lot of MJ dancers have forgotten the trials and tribulations they experienced when they first learned MJ. For an averagely competent MJ dancer it's a bit of a shock to be a complete beginner again. Instead of persevering they go back to their MJ comfort blanket.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Absolutely what I'm saying. It's being made too hard by some teachers and that is putting off some students.
    Sounds about right.

    Personally, I think that many dances could benefit from the "get them dancing, immediately" approach of Modern Jive, combined with a "then work on improving incrementally" follow-up.

    The problem with MJ is that it rarely does the second part of that approach.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Personally, I think that many dances could benefit from the "get them dancing, immediately" approach of Modern Jive, combined with a "then work on improving incrementally" follow-up.
    This is the approach I take. The idea is to make learning fun and to get them able to dance to a whole track by the end of their first lesson. This is completely possible for WCS. They might be repeating a few things over and over again. But they should be able to do that for a whole track.

  14. #114

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    I can get people to dance tango socially after an hour's lesson.

    They won't be doing it well, of course, and they won't be doing much more than walking around the room (but then, I don't usually do much more than walking around the room when dancing Tango socially).

    So why not aim to get people dancing WCS, as soon as possible? Ideally, after the first class? Is it simply not possible?



    I agree David, you CAN wcs socially after one lesson but obviously only what you were taught in the lesson...what i mean by 'socially' is interpreting the music, improve etc
    Last edited by DavidY; 25th-May-2010 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Fixing quote

  15. #115

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    I meant to say 'improv'...improvisation not improve!!

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    On the subject of the title of the thread - quote from Samantha Buckwalter who did some lovely classes at Scorch this weekend... "this dance is NOT hard"!!!!
    Sam & I spent a lot of time putting together our class format with MJ in mind when we started teaching WCS full time over 18months ago. We have had at least an 80% MJ crossover in that time, we constantly review our teaching practises with this in mind and I think that has been a big part of our sucess to date. No "this dance is NOT hard" but even MJ loses a % because its too hard for some!

    When I decided to take up WCS. I had to go back to the very beginning, I enjoyed the challenge! And I was lucky to find a brilliant teacher (Mario Robau Jr) who took the mystery out and made it all about how much I was prepared to put in! The teacher and method are important,making the dance inclusive & accesible is a must but that it is right for everyone?. Dunno!

    Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard? I dont think so, but it is harder than MJ and that quite frankly is it!

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by angelblue View Post
    I agree David, you CAN wcs socially after one lesson but obviously only what you were taught in the lesson...what i mean by 'socially' is interpreting the music, improve etc
    That's what I mean by social dancing also.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post

    Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard? I dont think so, but it is harder than MJ and that quite frankly is it!
    I think what you're really picking up hear Mike is the angle of the learning curve. Yes, MJ is easy to pick up as a beginner and an excellent way to get people partner dancing, but to dance it really well relies on an understanding of compression, connection, resistance, frame etc, etc.... - the same as WCS. MJ dancers who have that understanding should find picking up WCS fairly simple - however I wonder whether some WCS teachers appreciate that. It seems from your post, you do.... may well see u on 13th

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    I think what you're really picking up hear Mike is the angle of the learning curve. Yes, MJ is easy to pick up as a beginner and an excellent way to get people partner dancing, but to dance it really well relies on an understanding of compression, connection, resistance, frame etc, etc.... - the same as WCS. MJ dancers who have that understanding should find picking up WCS fairly simple - however I wonder whether some WCS teachers appreciate that. It seems from your post, you do.... may well see u on 13th
    When I started MJ I felt that I had two left feet, I had to go to at least 3
    lessons a week before I was in a position that I could remember any moves. My great break through came when I went to a workshop which went over all the beginners moves and I was then able link them up while social dancing.

    After 3.5 years I still find WCS footwork to be really hard, any time I do a work shop where there is alot of footwork I come out of it with a large head ache and the thought that I still have two left feet.

    Obviously this is my opinion but I still dance with beginners and very few ladies pick up the foot work and frame that easily, ie yes thay may know the footwork but it still takes time to use that footwork fluently and be able to do it with the beautiful flight that makes WCS so enjoyable.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post

    After 3.5 years I still find WCS footwork to be really hard, any time I do a work shop where there is alot of footwork I come out of it with a large head ache and the thought that I still have two left feet.
    If it's any help, I really enjoy watching u dance - looks very compact and controlled - despite your rather camp spare hand

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