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Thread: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Lastly we are currently doing a beginners DVD to give away to dancers at the door.

    Other than that, I can not think of any ways of making it easier for beginners.
    An alternative would be to do a short recap at the end of class and either record it yourself or allow the students to do so. You can post the video on the class website or find a another way to distribute it to the students. It is cheaper than making DVDs and would also allow you do address specific issues that came up in particular classes.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by kpmooney View Post
    An alternative would be to do a short recap at the end of class and either record it yourself or allow the students to do so. You can post the video on the class website or find a another way to distribute it to the students. It is cheaper than making DVDs and would also allow you do address specific issues that came up in particular classes.
    A short recap for people to record the lesson is what is done at the end of the workshops I've attended & I think its a good idea. Least then you can look at it whenever you wish & remind yourself of the moves.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by kpmooney View Post
    An alternative would be to do a short recap at the end of class and either record it yourself or allow the students to do so. You can post the video on the class website or find a another way to distribute it to the students. It is cheaper than making DVDs and would also allow you do address specific issues that came up in particular classes.
    We will be doing that with the intermediate lesson. You will be able to get the video off the website by logging in and viewing it. Something you dont want though, is for people not to come to classes anymore and just watch videos of the classes that end up on youtube.

    Something I was planning but wanted to run it by our dancers tonight first was this.....

    We will be running 4 classes levels per night. 8pm is intermediates in the main room and beginners in side room. 9pm Intermediate+/advanced main room, and Beginners+ in side room.

    The beginners class with be 3 basic patterns per night with the beginner + a more techique driven class. Once a beginner has done 4 weeks they will be able to go to the first intermediate class but come back out for beginner+ for another 4 weeks.

    To avoid social seperation with intermediate dancers, both classes will take part in a joint warm up and there will be appointed dancers who will assure beginners get pleanty of dances.

    Not sure how well this will work but going to give it a trial for a month or two.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    My point, Andy, was that it is not entirely clear to me that this teacher of kpmooney's is putting people off. I infer from kpmooney's post that he is not a beginner himself (presuming he is, in fact, a he....).

    He says an abstract approach goes over a lot of beginners heads, which is fair enough - but then I said much the same thing my previous post when I began alluding to the way I teach. Granted, I was criticizing the abstract stuff rather than condoning it as a good way to teach beginners, but if you paraphrased my post you could wind up with something similar to kpmooneys.

    It's possible kpmooneys teacher is putting people off with the way he or she teaches, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt first unless kpmooney pipes in again to clarify that.
    I hate to be wishy washy, but as I was writing my earlier post, I was going back and forth as to whether I approved of his teaching methods in a beginner's class or not. I have come to the conclusion that it is not something I would generally advocate, certainly not in the case of novice instructors, but he pulled it off well enough that I was rather surprised. And I was going in with high expectations since I have taken workshops and a few random classes with him before.

    Since I am part of the organizing group that chooses classes and instructors, I received an advanced copy of what he was planning on covering. I was shocked when I read it as it was about three times the amount of material I would put in an introductory WCS class, and some of it was rather on the abstract theoretical side. I figured he'd have to leave a lot out, or that if he tried to plough though everything, he'd lose all the students.

    Well, he got through the whole thing. And most of the students could lead/follow the basics at the end end. I am defining the basics as a sugar push (with or without a tuck turn), left side pass, underarm turn, tuck turn, and basic whip variations. A smaller percentage came out being able to do things like inside roles, double outside turns, and some more complicated whip variations. The abstract stuff was largely lost on people who had no prior WCS or Lindy background which was a large number of people.

    Then again, he said at the outset (and I am paraphrasing) that he expected someone with no dance experience to have a solid grasp of maybe 60% of what was taught, for 30% to be challenging but doable, and for 10% to be over their heads. This is essentially what ended up happening.

    The bottom line is that it is incumbent on an instructor to know his strengths and weaknesses as a teacher, be cognizant of the class demographic, and make course corrections should the need arise. If I had tried to teach the same class in the same way, it would have been an unmitigated disaster. And I like to think I am a decent teacher (in a general sense-- I have never taught dance).

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    We will be doing that with the intermediate lesson. You will be able to get the video off the website by logging in and viewing it. Something you dont want though, is for people not to come to classes anymore and just watch videos of the classes that end up on youtube.
    why not just let students film a class summary themselves, but ask them not to put it on youtube?

    having said that, if someone is good enough that they can learn a routine just by seeing it on youtube, they probably don't need to come to classes anymore.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    why not just let students film a class summary themselves, but ask them not to put it on youtube?

    having said that, if someone is good enough that they can learn a routine just by seeing it on youtube, they probably don't need to come to classes anymore.

    We currently do that but find when they do it after class it can disrupt the flow whilst they get cameras etc. Then there is always someone who will want it done again as they didn't press record etd

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Oops. I seemed to have missed all of this thread as I don't get chance to log on to the forum much anymore.

    Ah, the old chestnut of whether WCS is too hard.

    No, it's not.

    Ok, that may be a bit too simplistic but I mean it. Compare to the like of ballroom, where you have multiple characteristics to the different dances, WCS is certainly not 'difficult' as such.

    I have been teaching WCS for about 4 years now and through all of that time I have tried to make the introduction to WCS as easy and lighthearted as I possibly can. People come to our classes having heard this and that about WCS. Whether it's the dance, the people, the pressures and so on.
    I tell them, in no uncertain terms, to leave any preconceptions at the door and enjoy this wonderful dance in the company of some lovely people and to just take it at their own pace.

    I have tailored my classes based on my experience of seeing how people react to certain teaching methods and hope that it has made the adoption of it as easy and fun as possible. Things are going really well so I can only assume that I am at least doing something right.


    When it comes to going that little bit further to give people the best possible start, we have implemented a number of things. Of course, none of the extras are any use without having a sound teaching model first.

    First off I have spent a LONG time developing our website. Although the 'What is WCS' section is lengthy it is the most commented on, and read, section of the website. I have used videos to demonstrate in a brief manner what WCS is. Only last night a lady commented on how useful it was. At the moment the site is getting a lot of hits from all over the world. I am hoping it is because this is an explanatory and helpful page.

    As mentioned, I also post recap videos on the site from each of the classes. This, however, is only for the intermediate class and is brief. Most of it is actually Suzie and I beating each other up but you get the point

    For people who are new to the dance we give them a gloss booklet which describes, again briefly, what wcs is, where they can learn, some golden rules amongst other things. People seem to like it but in reality Im sure they dont sit up nights reading it.

    We did plan out a structure and script for a DVD that we would give to beginners but decided against it in the end. We were afraid that people would use that DVD in isolation and then assume the measure of an intermdiate dancer!!! Dangerous. I am constantly reinforcing the fact that people should stay with the beginners revision until they are happy with all the patterns but also with the key concepts e.g. leverage. We used to run a card system where you had to get 12 or so stamps at a beginner level. You then had to dance with a teacher to see if you should move up. Great idea - Ladies loved it - Men hated it.


    In reality though all of these things are nice-to-have extras. The single thing that makes WCS hard to learn for some is the teacher. Students as well to a point but definately the teacher. Plain and simple.

    What makes a good teacher? I don't know. All I know is that a good teacher will put people at ease. This is the first step in helping people get involved in WCS so they can enjoy a relaxed, social and fun night.





    Right, back in 3 more months

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    Compare to the like of ballroom, where you have multiple characteristics to the different dances, WCS is certainly not 'difficult' as such.
    You're comparing one dance to a group of dances, which isn't very fair on ballroom. If you compared 'swing' with 'ballroom' it might be more even (wcs, lindy, balboa, charleston, eastcoast swing, rock n roll etc vrs waltz, foxtrot, quickstep, ballroom tango etc)

    On the scale of popular social dances I say wcs is harder than, (for example) salsa, modern jive, cha cha, nightclub2step.

    Which doesn't mean it can't be taught in a fun a light hearted way, which is what is sounds like you are doing. But the same students with the same teacher will probably master the above dances quicker than wcs.

    If you love what you see of wcs you should still study wcs. I'm not advocating taking the easiest option just because its easier, or getting all snooty because 'your' dance is more initially harder.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    Ah, the old chestnut of whether WCS is too hard.

    No, it's not.
    Of course WCS is not too hard. But that wasn't the question.

    The question is about it being made too hard. And that is down to the teaching, not the dance itself. There is a well known saying KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid. I got the impression that some beginners teaching of WCS doesn't follow KISS.

    But it seems I was wrong because all the dancers who told me that they are finding WCS too complicated are wrong. All people who can dance WCS or teach WCS tell me that they are fabulous and couldn't improve in any way.

    Change?

    No need ...

    .. as you were.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Of course WCS is not too hard. But that wasn't the question.

    The question is about it being made too hard. And that is down to the teaching, not the dance itself. There is a well known saying KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid. I got the impression that some beginners teaching of WCS doesn't follow KISS.
    In my own case I found WCS hard enough for me to want to give up for these reasons.

    The only WCS I could get to was monthly workshops and at that time there was only one beginners class followed by two intermediate classes where I was hopelessly out of my depth.

    There was no local classes/freestyles so I never got to practice to the point where I could relax to the point of enjoying myself.

    There was a mystique about WCS. It is only danced by the best, only with the best, could only be understood by the best. For me that mystique has gone and that process started when I experienced a teacher that started off an intermediate lesson by showing the basic patterns and then showing you what compenents of that pattern can be altered. The problem of having to remember hundreds of unique patterns disappeared and a tool kit of how to vary basic patterns has been building. Most importantly my mindset has changed from "it is difficult" to "it is possible".

    Bottom line - WCS teaching for beginners is getting more mature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    But it seems I was wrong because all the dancers who told me that they are finding WCS too complicated are wrong. All people who can dance WCS or teach WCS tell me that they are fabulous and couldn't improve in any way.

    Change?

    No need ...

    .. as you were.
    It would be helpful of you (or them) could voice what/why they are finding WCS difficult. A key to solving a problem is in knowing what the problem is. Any teacher or dancer that thinks they can't improve is a fool and there is no point in having discussions with fools as that is a waste of energy.

    Change is the only constant thing. Change what is bad but keep what is good. Find out what is good and what is bad.

    let's keep this thing positive.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    It would be helpful of you (or them) could voice what/why they are finding WCS difficult. A key to solving a problem is in knowing what the problem is.
    In this case I don't need to identify what is putting off beginners at WCS classes because it isn't my problem. I thought I was doing WCS dance teaching colleagues a favour by passing on feedback I've received. All I got in return was personal abuse and arrogant dismissal of the problem. Perhaps that arrogance is the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    Any teacher or dancer that thinks they can't improve is a fool and there is no point in having discussions with fools as that is a waste of energy.
    I'm afraid you are wrong. From the majority of responses I've received on here from WCS students and teachers it seems that there is no need to improve the teaching of WCS to beginners. And none of those students or teachers think they are fools

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    Change is the only constant thing. Change what is bad but keep what is good. Find out what is good and what is bad.
    Change is often a difficult thing. Because you have to admit you were wrong. For example, I recently changed the way I teach the catapult. The reason I made the change was through analysis. I filmed my own dancing and found I was doing the catapult differently from the way I was teaching the catapult

    So I changed the way I'm teaching the catapult. That wasn't the problem. The problem was the questions. Why have you changed it? I had to confess. But failing to make the change? Not possible once I'd identified that I needed to change to maintain consistency.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    In regards to KISS:

    There are things that need to be taught to people (and possibly drilled in, again & again) to make the dance work. By simplifying the teaching too much (out of fear of scaring someone off), I think you'll run the risk of producing frustrated dancers who will never really "get" wcs, who aren't progressing & wonder why things aren't working. Or, dancers who stop coming to your club because proper technique is explained in much better detail, elsewhere.

    Music was one main of the main things that attracted me to wcs, but the other was dance progression (technique etc) (and dancing with others who had also had decent technique). If this is dumbed down, then i'm almost back to mj.

    (& I'd rather go to a mj venue for mj, as the choice of mj venues is far greater, and the amount of people in attendance on a typical night far exceeds any wcs venue!).


    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    For me that mystique has gone and that process started when I experienced a teacher that started off an intermediate lesson by showing the basic patterns and then showing you what compenents of that pattern can be altered. The problem of having to remember hundreds of unique patterns disappeared and a tool kit of how to vary basic patterns has been building. Most importantly my mindset has changed from "it is difficult" to "it is possible".
    That sounds like good teaching.

    I would also describe a good teacher as someone who is very good (& quick) at sizing up the mean average ability of the class that has turned up on a particular night, and will teach a pattern which fits the overall ability of the class. And, as said above, teaches how to alter different components really is a big help making sense of the dance. Not only that, - but teaching alterations is also a good way catering for the differing abilities a class typically has.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In this case I don't need to identify what is putting off beginners at WCS classes because it isn't my problem. I thought I was doing WCS dance teaching colleagues a favour by passing on feedback I've received. All I got in return was personal abuse and arrogant dismissal of the problem. Perhaps that arrogance is the problem.
    I'm afraid you are wrong. From the majority of responses I've received on here from WCS students and teachers it seems that there is no need to improve the teaching of WCS to beginners. And none of those students or teachers think they are fools
    I don't think your post was directly aimed at me - I've certainly not been abusive - but I also don't believe I arrogantly dismissed the problem.

    I don't disagree that WCS is complicated; I stated IMO that it is a tricky dance to learn and that it takes dedication, time and money (which is made all the more difficult by the local availability - or now lack, thereoff in my area - of classes) to begin to master it.

    The part that I disagreed with was, what I interpreted as, a generalisation that the teachers make it too complicated. My statement was that, in your original example, the pupil may have been expecting too much too soon from this dance.

    I still maintain that modern jivers starting to learn WCS need to get out of the MJ mindset of "I'll be dancing this after one lesson". A better mindset (if attending weekly classes) might be "I'll feel more comfortable with the basics after 6 wks". Although by "comfortable" I don't mean that you would have mastered the dance in that time.

    I may never learn or master Quantum Physics (although I'm not trying to) and I doubt that I would after one 45 minute lesson. However, I don't believe that would be because the teacher made it complicated; it may just be because the subject matter is complicated.

    WCS is a growing scene in the UK. Another possibilty to consider may be that it is not that some teachers are making it too complicated, but that some teachers may not yet have the dance skills/teaching skills/ability/confidence to make the beginners' lesson seem simple.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by jive-vee View Post
    WCS is a growing scene in the UK. Another possibilty to consider may be that it is not that some teachers are making it too complicated, but that some teachers may not yet have the dance skills/teaching skills/ability/confidence to make the beginners' lesson seem simple.
    I think this could be the problem. I'm with Mary Poppins on this one. You need to get your mix of medicine and sugar (push) just right.

    Here's how it goes;
    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Poppins
    In ev'ry job that must be done
    There is an element of fun
    You find the fun and snap!
    The job's a game

    And ev'ry task you undertake
    Becomes a piece of cake
    A lark! A spree! It's very clear to see that

    A Spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down
    The medicine go down-wown
    The medicine go down
    Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down
    In a most delightful way
    It strikes me that some WCS teaching lacks "an element of fun".

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post

    It strikes me that some WCS teaching lacks "an element of fun".
    How can you say that without going to all the UK's WCS classes?

    Or is it just something you have made up (again)?

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In this case I don't need to identify what is putting off beginners at WCS classes because it isn't my problem. I thought I was doing WCS dance teaching colleagues a favour by passing on feedback I've received. All I got in return was personal abuse and arrogant dismissal of the problem. Perhaps that arrogance is the problem.:
    I thought you were doing WCS teachers (and in consequence students like me) a favour. Since you were feeling in a helpful mood I just asked if you could identify specific problems. You don't have to if you don't feel like it. I can see no reason why an MJ teacher should want to help the drift of their students to WCS. I can at least say that I have not dismissed the problem (nor has Lee Bartholomew or PaulF - look at the new things that they are trying at their own establishments) and I do not feel I have been abusive to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I'm afraid you are wrong. From the majority of responses I've received on here from WCS students and teachers it seems that there is no need to improve the teaching of WCS to beginners. And none of those students or teachers think they are fools
    Most WCS teachers are doing a great job. Some have a very high level of experienced dancers in their classes and pitch their efforts to satisfy and retain them, sometimes but not always at the expense of the beginner experience.

    Some teachers have seen the numbers of beginners increase as they have opened more and more classes and now they are repositioning their events to reflect that. It does take time for a teacher to recognise and adapt to these changes in customer needs while still satisfying their existing customers.

    There used to be a time when there were very few classes and if you didn't get on with a particular class or teacher then that was too bad. Those times are changing rapidly. People vote with their feet when there is somewhere else to go to. Fools are not tolerated for long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Change is often a difficult thing. Because you have to admit you were wrong. For example, I recently changed the way I teach the catapult. The reason I made the change was through analysis. I filmed my own dancing and found I was doing the catapult differently from the way I was teaching the catapult .
    Sometimes you have to admit that you were wrong. Most of the time you just have to admit that you could do things better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    So I changed the way I'm teaching the catapult. That wasn't the problem. The problem was the questions. Why have you changed it? I had to confess. But failing to make the change? Not possible once I'd identified that I needed to change to maintain consistency.
    I always worry if I see that a teacher is dancing differently to the way that they teach that things should be done. It is often easier to see the errors that others are making than to see the ones we make ourselves. I hate watching videos of myself for that reason - but it does help progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think this could be the problem. I'm with Mary Poppins on this one. You need to get your mix of medicine and sugar (push) just right.

    It strikes me that some WCS teaching lacks "an element of fun".
    Some teachers are just dire and can make a lesson drag. Some can make the whole thing go with such fuch fun that I end the lesson thinking that it just flew by and I cannot understand how they taught so much in such a short time. Fortunately I now go to the latter.

    If only I could find one of the latter teachers for Arg Tango. I know that Tango is supposed to be about unrequited love and death but an evening with most Tango teachers leaves me wanting to slit my wrists. If I wanted to be that miserable I just have to phone my brother. The only Arg Tango lessons I have ever enjoyed have been with Amir but he is a bit difficult for me to get to these days.
    Last edited by Chef; 20th-April-2010 at 04:33 PM.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    How can you say that without going to all the UK's WCS classes?

    Or is it just something you have made up (again)?
    I can say it because I used the word "some" not "all". It is not me arguing from the particular to the general. That is Lee Bartholomew.

    And it's not me who has a record for making things up. Again that is Lee Bartholomew.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Of course WCS is not too hard. But that wasn't the question.

    The question is about it being made too hard. And that is down to the teaching, not the dance itself. There is a well known saying KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid. I got the impression that some beginners teaching of WCS doesn't follow KISS.
    While I can see where you’re coming from as I pointed out earlier a teacher can keep making things simpler, but at some stage has to draw a line. It’s one thing to try to make it easy for your students by being fun, teaching better and pitching your classes well. It’s another thing to make it easy by throwing away the elements of the dance that make it unique. I’d prefer everyone to work the former way rather than the latter and hope I do a good job of it myself.

    I know you consider this “arrogance” from your other posts, but as much as I agree that feedback is important for teachers to improve their classes, you also have to consider where the feedback is coming from. The “problem” with MJ is that it is, almost by definition, the easiest dance to pick up quickly. This means that if you use MJ as your measuring stick for how hard other dances are to pick up, every other dance is going to come up short. “Too hard” often means “harder than I’m used to”. Most of the WCS dancers in Commonwealth countries come from a MJ background, which means a lot of people have similar measuring sticks.

    Does anyone know what the general opinion of WCS teaching in, say, France is like? I think it’d be an interesting point of reference as WCS seems to be taking off very quickly and successfully there.

    I’m not suggesting that a teacher should write off comments along these lines out of hand, but one does have to question ones sources as well. Recently a local MJ teacher friend of mine put out a feedback survey on her advanced class, and in particular the re-inclusion of footwork after a hiatus in the Ceroc syllabus here for about a year. Most of the class liked it, a few didn’t feel all that strongly either way but only two* didn’t like it. They were also (most likely, as they were in the class at the time) the only two who complained about it to the studio manager previously, which prompted the feedback survey in the first place.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    All I got in return was personal abuse and arrogant dismissal of the problem.
    That’s a little over-the-top don’t you think? In my opinion the debate has been quite polite, with plenty of contributions indicating that people are trying to make the dance more accessible to beginners than it may have been in the last few years. I don’t see anything that could be reasonably considered abuse until after the time you posted this. Speaking of which.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I can say it because I used the word "some" not "all". It is not me arguing from the particular to the general. That is Lee Bartholomew.

    And it's not me who has a record for making things up. Again that is Lee Bartholomew.
    And here was me thinking he was on your ignore list.


    * One of whom is also well known to think rather highly of their somewhat lacking ability

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Just reading some of the very black & white comments on this thread demonstrates the difficult task of growing WCS in the UK. It all comes down to attitude and perspective.

    On a recent trip to Lyon, France, I was surprised at how quickly WCS had grown in France in 2 ½ years compared to the UK scene. Things went wrong at this event, but I did not hear people complaining about teachers, organisation, music etc, etc. They seemed very chilled, enthusiastic and accepting of things. A sort half full cup as opposed the constant half empty UK cup.
    At the recent UK champs we took a team of novice dancers to compete against the awesome standard of the French teams plus their enthusiastic supporters. We had no delusions about our abilities, but wanted simply to share in the experience. We were surprised that it was the French that gave us the most encouragement and positive feedback. I think this reflected their positive outlook and natural enthusiasm for WCS.

    I don’t think we can replicate their success without a big change in attitude. We need to try and turn the negatives into positives. Rather that slating various teachers, lets be thankful that they are trying to grow the scene and accept that they will need time and encouragement. Hopefully, more will step up and standards will grow with experience.
    At the champs, I was taking to several dancers who were complaining that they had no local WCS teachers. I pointed out that they had so & so and the reply would be…yes but they are rubbish or not as good as the top teachers etc. Surely something is better than nothing and how else can a teacher grow in experience and ability.
    From what I heard…initially the French were self taught. They would hire a venue and copy moves etc form videos. Whilst this is not ideal, it clearly demonstrates if the needs must then anything is possible.

    Let us encourage all the UK teachers (whatever level) for stepping up to take on what can often be a thankless task (at least at first). The numbers and profit are always smaller than for MJ and the technical work to become a teacher let alone a good teacher much more demanding.

    As my old friend used to say…show me the monument to a critic…there aren’t any.

    Now….is WCS made too difficult????....hmmm let me see said the blind man to the deaf dog.

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