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Thread: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    I wasn't too sure about the number of basic moves of WCS, but found this interesting site and in particular the following :-

    (not sure where the 10th move is - maybe I left one behind ???)

    Moves
    Ten Basic moves that any WCS dancer should know are:

    1. Starter Step: Two triple steps in closed position to begin the dance, so that the leader and follower can get in sync with each other.
    2. Throw Out: A six count basic where the follower is led from the closed position to open.
    3. Sugar Push: A six count basic where the follower, facing the leader, is led from the end of the slot to a two hand hold, then led back to the same end of the slot.
    4. Right Side Pass: A six count basic where the follower is led to the other end of the slot, the couple passing the on their right.
    5. Underarm Pass: A six count basic where the follower is led to the other end of the slot, passing the leader underarm on the right.
    6. Left Side Pass: A six count basic where the follower is led past the leader to the other end of the slot, passing the leader on the left.
    7. Return to Close: In six counts, the follower is led 3/4 of the way around the leader into closed position.
    8. Tuck Turn: This is like a throw out in 6 counts, but the follower is blocked and and led to turn under her arm (an inside turn).
    9. Whip: This 8 count basic resembles Lindy Hop. The follower starts at one end of the slot and is led around the lead, to the same end of the slot she started.
    With these ten moves, anyone can do a lot.
    and something which really annoys me is having to learn syncopations (can never remember them) only to read on this site :-

    Advanced dancers syncopate their footwork to match the music and turn their bodies to interesting angles to flow more gracefully.
    No wonder I can never get them, I am a looooooooooooooong way off being advanced don't think I will ever get there - why do the teach them so early ???


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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Just in case anyone is interested (and following on from Minies post above) there is a thing called West Coast 101, which is like a basic syllabus of WCS beginner moves. There are competitions held in the US where you are only allowed to use these moves which gives newcomers a fairly level playing field.

    The moves and a description of each can be found http://www.swingworld.com/wcs.htm

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    I've seen quite a few approaches to basic patterns taken by different major teachers. For example:


    Skippy Blair
    - 22 basic foundation patterns. To long for me to be bothered listing.


    GSDTA
    (including Skippy, so perhaps more recent than my above comment) - 14 foundation patterns called WCS 101, as mentioned by Chef.

    Mario - 7 basic patterns.
    • Push break
    • Pass down the left hand side
    • Pass down the right side
    • Whip (down left and up left)
    • Whip (down left and up right)
    • Whip (down right and up left)
    • Whip (down right and up right)


    Benji Schwimmer - 3 basic patterns
    • Push break
    • Pass
    • Whip


    I'm quite certain other highly influential people have their own lists and reasons why they do things the way they do as well. I can see the various arguments, but I'm not convinced the more general break-downs such as Mario's and Benji's are that useful from the perspective of teaching beginners. They're great from a conceptual point of view but I find that, for example, tuck turns are sufficiently different from push breaks that teaching it as a push break variation isn't that beneficial unless the students already have a pretty good understanding of the dance.

    On the other hand, I also find that Skippy's foundation set has a considerable amount of repetition for very little gain so I'm not that happy with that extreme either. Personally I feel the WCS 101 set has a good balance, and we use a three month beginners program that has them at the core which we've been very happy with the results of.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I'm quite certain other highly influential people have their own lists and reasons why they do things the way they do as well. I can see the various arguments, but I'm not convinced the more general break-downs such as Mario's and Benji's are that useful from the perspective of teaching beginners. They're great from a conceptual point of view but I find that, for example, tuck turns are sufficiently different from push breaks that teaching it as a push break variation isn't that beneficial unless the students already have a pretty good understanding of the dance.

    On the other hand, I also find that Skippy's foundation set has a considerable amount of repetition for very little gain so I'm not that happy with that extreme either. Personally I feel the WCS 101 set has a good balance, and we use a three month beginners program that has them at the core which we've been very happy with the results of.
    The more abstract approach is useful at a slightly higher level, say advanced novie or intermediate. I am not sure how it works for total beginners who have never danced before. I am fortunate to have a champion level dancer who lives maybe three miles away and teaches local group classes. He takes a very abstract, almost mathematical approach to patterns, which I find very beneficial, but I think is largely lost on beginners. Some newbies seem to get it, but a lot don't.

    The WCS 101 approach might be useful, but I worry about it becoming like a ballroom syllabus which I think would be very destructive to the dance.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by kpmooney View Post
    but I think is largely lost on beginners. Some newbies seem to get it, but a lot don't.
    Is this good for the future of WCS?

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Is this good for the future of WCS?
    It depends on whether the teachers aim that kind of stuff at beginners or not.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    It depends on whether the teachers aim that kind of stuff at beginners or not.
    And that depends on what the beginners are doing in the lesson. Are they there to learn WCS? If they are there to learn the dance and "some newbies seem to get it, but a lot don't" I'd say that the teacher is making the dance too hard for people to learn.

    This is either a failing of the students because they have joined a class that isn't intended for beginners or it's a failing of the teacher because his beginners aren't learning what they have paid for.

    Of course some people aren't capable of learning or willing to spend the time required to learn some things and we have to accept that there will be some failures. But this sounds like a lot of people aren't getting a social dance. Sounds anti-social to me.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And that depends on what the beginners are doing in the lesson. Are they there to learn WCS? If they are there to learn the dance and "some newbies seem to get it, but a lot don't" I'd say that the teacher is making the dance too hard for people to learn.

    This is either a failing of the students because they have joined a class that isn't intended for beginners or it's a failing of the teacher because his beginners aren't learning what they have paid for.

    Of course some people aren't capable of learning or willing to spend the time required to learn some things and we have to accept that there will be some failures. But this sounds like a lot of people aren't getting a social dance. Sounds anti-social to me.
    Sorry Andy but you are WRONG. This is an educated dance where there are certain principals that you are expected to know, if you don't know them the dance will not work.

    Likewise this dance is very much a social dance, yes there are competitions which are taken seriously but in 95% of the English dancers they are first and foremost loving the social scene.

    I believe YOU should start going to some WCS lessons by the likes of Paul , Cat, Lee Easton, Samantha and Mike before making ill advised judgements.

    rant over

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Sorry Andy but you are WRONG. This is an educated dance where there are certain principals that you are expected to know, if you don't know them the dance will not work.
    I'm afraid I am not wrong. You are right that WCS is an "educated dance". All dances require some education, even MJ. And where do you receive that education? I'd say the best place to receive the education is from a teacher in a lesson. How do you measure that "education". By producing "educated" students.

    I would say that the teacher kpmooney describes is not providing an education to "a lot" of his students. And it sounds like he's making the beginners class too hard for "a lot" of beginners.

    I am not arguing from the particular to the general. I'm talking about this specific teacher. I'm not talking about "the likes of Paul , Cat, Lee Easton, Samantha and Mike before making ill advised judgements". I'm talking about this specific description of a teacher who seems to failing "a lot" of his beginners. If he had results like these and was teaching in a state school he'd be on special measures.

    On the subject of taking WCS lessons I have done so. I've had lessons from Paul Warden and some of the visiting American teachers. I didn't find the lessons in any way "too hard". However, this thread is not about me it's about the feedback I'm getting from my students. And that feedback is that they're trying WCS and giving up because they're finding it too hard. Many of my students are also trying Argentine Tango, I keep hearing that they love it!

    People have posted on this thread that WCS is not too hard and I keep hearing from people who have tried WCS that it is too hard. So who is right?

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    My point, Andy, was that it is not entirely clear to me that this teacher of kpmooney's is putting people off. I infer from kpmooney's post that he is not a beginner himself (presuming he is, in fact, a he....).

    He says an abstract approach goes over a lot of beginners heads, which is fair enough - but then I said much the same thing my previous post when I began alluding to the way I teach. Granted, I was criticizing the abstract stuff rather than condoning it as a good way to teach beginners, but if you paraphrased my post you could wind up with something similar to kpmooneys.

    It's possible kpmooneys teacher is putting people off with the way he or she teaches, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt first unless kpmooney pipes in again to clarify that.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I'm afraid I am not wrong. You are right that WCS is an "educated dance". All dances require some education, even MJ. And where do you receive that education? I'd say the best place to receive the education is from a teacher in a lesson. How do you measure that "education". By producing "educated" students.

    I would say that the teacher kpmooney describes is not providing an education to "a lot" of his students. And it sounds like he's making the beginners class too hard for "a lot" of beginners.

    I am not arguing from the particular to the general. I'm talking about this specific teacher. I'm not talking about "the likes of Paul , Cat, Lee Easton, Samantha and Mike before making ill advised judgements". I'm talking about this specific description of a teacher who seems to failing "a lot" of his beginners. If he had results like these and was teaching in a state school he'd be on special measures.

    On the subject of taking WCS lessons I have done so. I've had lessons from Paul Warden and some of the visiting American teachers. I didn't find the lessons in any way "too hard". However, this thread is not about me it's about the feedback I'm getting from my students. And that feedback is that they're trying WCS and giving up because they're finding it too hard. Many of my students are also trying Argentine Tango, I keep hearing that they love it!

    People have posted on this thread that WCS is not too hard and I keep hearing from people who have tried WCS that it is too hard. So who is right?
    Andy
    The teachers do not make the dance to hard. The actual is very difficult to pick up especially from a dancers who have a MJ background.

    From my own experience I am a MJ dancer with two left feet who has some rythm. I took 8 months of doing the Beginners and the Intermediate lessons. I had to be dragged up by friends after the lesson to try and do some social dancing because I lacked confidence. I was told by my teachers that they were not sure if the penny would ever drop but it eventually did.

    WCS has proper dance technique which needs to be used and when used makes the dance so much easier.

    MJ dancers who classify themselves as intermediate seem to automatically believe that they can do the beginners classes for a few weeks before moving up the the intermediate level where they invariably start dropping out or they just drop out because they find the beginners class to difficult to master.

    If you want to master this dance you need to start at the beginning and don't try to run until you can walk.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    WCS is harder to learn for beginners than MJ, but no harder than Salsa, Tango, Lindy etc.

    If anything it's actually easier for intermediate dancers to learn than MJ once they have got to grips with the basic rules WCS follows.

    From experiance, those coming from a Jive background can sometimes find it hard, not because it is complex, but because they have to go back to being a beginner again.

    We have had many Jivers come and think they are the dogs balls at dancing then to get told they HAVE to do the beginners class because they are struggling with a suger push and wont be able to do the intermediate class, that becomes the problem.

    We have alot of Jive teachers come to our classes and the same rules apply. If they are not at the required WCS level for intermediates, then they do the beginners review.

    Also for Jivers, it is sometimes hard to undo habbits they have learnt from jive. Not always bad habbits, just stuff that is not useful for WCS


    The biggest failiure for beginners though IMO is those who tell them it is too hard without letting them make their own mind up. This I find esp comes from some jive teachers and it's not good publicity for the dance when it is said socialy, in their classes or on a public forum!!!!

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    I am sure that WCS teachers are doing the best that they know how make the introduction to WCS basics as easy as they know how. Some may be better than others but each of them have a commercial reason for retaining the beginners that come through their door.

    The simple thing is that if you can do something then you think it is easy. If you can't do something then it is difficult - at least to you. A teacher of mine encouraged me to work during the year and not dismiss parts of the syllabus with the phrase "the only difficult questions on the exam are the ones that you don't know the answer to". The trouble is that people that are finding WCS difficult go around saying it is difficult. The people that are no longer finding it difficult go around telling other people that they should try it. I should know I am one of those people that went through both of those phases.

    So I would say that WCS is not difficult - it is arduos. If you put the work in, attend lessons and listen to the teacher then it becomes easy. This is just part of what I said in my previous post.

    So instead of this thread getting too finger wagging with "WCS teachers are making it too hard or not teaching the right things in the right way" and "MJ dancers do this or that" perhaps a more constructive way forward can be found.

    How about a few posts from WCS teachers saying how they go about making sure thier newcomers getting the best introduction to WCS.

    How about MJ teachers saying what problems their dancers are coming back with, what things they are finding difficult and why. What do they think could be done differently? Some plain old customer feedback.

    WCS is not purposely made hard by the teachers. It is just that MJ has had as much of the tricky bits either removed or glossed over. If you are going to do MJ well then it is every bit as arduos as WCS.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    How about a few posts from WCS teachers saying how they go about making sure thier newcomers getting the best introduction to WCS.
    Starting tonight, we are giving all dancers, new or not, an 8 page beginners booklet that contains beginners patterns, Hints, tips and FAQ along with discounts and free lessons.

    Im also looking in to ways of having dedicated beginners lessons during class times to be able to give beginners more 1to1 time and appointing 'social dancers' who's job it is to help look after the beginners from a social point of view.

    Our new website will also aim to be an interaction point with new dancers with online beginners lessons.

    Lastly we are currently doing a beginners DVD to give away to dancers at the door.

    Other than that, I can not think of any ways of making it easier for beginners.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Starting tonight, we are giving all dancers, new or not, an 8 page beginners booklet that contains beginners patterns, Hints, tips and FAQ along with discounts and free lessons.

    Im also looking in to ways of having dedicated beginners lessons during class times to be able to give beginners more 1to1 time and appointing 'social dancers' who's job it is to help look after the beginners from a social point of view.

    Our new website will also aim to be an interaction point with new dancers with online beginners lessons.

    Lastly we are currently doing a beginners DVD to give away to dancers at the door.

    Other than that, I can not think of any ways of making it easier for beginners.
    These are all new things and Lee is changing. It seems he's hoping to make it easier for beginners. This means he's got the message that it could be easier for beginners and that he'd retain more customers if he made it easier. Will it work? Who knows, he's not done it yet. But it can't do any harm.

    The hardest thing for people to realise is that they need to change. If I keep hearing that people are giving up a dance because they're finding it too hard I have two choices;

    1 - Be delighted they've scuttled back to the comfort zone of MJ.

    2 - Post something on this forum that WCS teachers will read so they can change something to retain more customers.

    So far Lee is the only one who's shown any willingness to change. It's a funny old world

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    All the things that Lee talks about above sound very positive. Any other Teachers/organisers doing different things or able to comment on the effect of anything talked about so far?

    Paul Farrel is also putting videos on his website to explain what WCS is and some of the basics (not meant to replace class instruction). For all I know other teachers could be doing the same. Part of the maturation of the WCS scene has been doing things to address beginner retention but it is hard for the teachers around to satisfy the needs of beginners and more experienced dancers as well putting on more classes around the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Lastly we are currently doing a beginners DVD to give away to dancers at the door.
    This is a an extract from Skippy Blairs website about the WCS 101 syllabus (see link in my post above).

    "The DVD "West Coast 101" clarifies the patterns and techniques. If there are still questions after reading these descriptions and viewing the DVD, feel free to email me personally at: Skippy@Skippyblair.com or Call me at: 562-869-8949.

    You can Purchase the DVD for $19.95 plus postage. (This is a Non-profit Venture) Teachers can take advantage of buying 10 copies for $100.00. Help Spread the Word!"


    Are there any teachers in the UK that are offering this DVD to their newcomers? Do you think it is effective in newcomer retention? Are you providing something similar yourself?
    Last edited by Chef; 19th-April-2010 at 04:06 PM.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    These are all new things and Lee is changing. It seems he's hoping to make it easier for beginners. This means he's got the message that it could be easier for beginners and that he'd retain more customers if he made it easier. Will it work? Who knows, he's not done it yet. But it can't do any harm.
    Dance classes are a business. Dancers are all customers. If you listen to them and give them what they want, then you will run a good healthy business.

    It's a constant adaptation that is alot of the time done through trial and error. If these don't help people, then a slight change to it might.

    Please do not be under any assumption that I have read your posts and thought I should change the way things are done just because you said so


    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    Are there any teachers in the UK that are offering this DVD to their newcomers? Do you think it is effective in newcomer retention? Are you providing something similar yourself?
    I thought about buying in DVD's but if I did, I would not be able to give them away free which would go against what I wanted to do. Also familiar faces on the DVD's would be a good thing.

    Will it help with retention? I don't know. There is only one way to find out. I would certainly hope so or at the very minimum, help bring up the beginners alot quicker.

    Of course DVD's are only any use if people are going to watch them and learn from them. I would guess that only 25% of new dancers would.

    Ceroc used to give away beginners DVD's. Don't know if they still do.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Ceroc used to give away beginners DVD's. Don't know if they still do.
    I got one when I started in February.

    (I've since given it back; it was useful, but I don't seem to need it any more so another beginner can have it)

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    My west coast swing is ok I think, but I'm no expert, which I why its going to be so much more fun wading into this thread:

    First of all, WCS is harder than salsa, but probably easier initially than tango. That is because Salsa has one rhythm, (triple step variations) but wcs has two, (triple step and walk variations.) At an int level tango and wcs are probably as hard as each other, but then tango (probably) gets a little harder. (Since at an advanced level there is an equal or higher level of subtlety but being in a close hold, less room for error.)

    Second, teachers can't make a dance hard. The dance just 'is'. But I can either teach material that is too hard for the students I have, or too easy for the students I have. Or I can give off a vibe that if they don't do the material well they are 'bad'. Maybe that is bad teaching, but if someone's class is full, who is to say?

    That is different from the teacher who was criticized for being too abstract for his beginners. I can say abstract things that go over most people's head, but still teach a great class. (Good material that people can do well by the end of the class.) The fact that the abstract conceptualization wasn't understood by everyone doesn't matter, but if some people are ready for it, its worth while mentioning.

    I think the wcs 'boom' is driven at least partly by two things:
    youtube videos that make wcs look amazing
    availability of amazing teachers

    If you want to learn to dance because you thought J&T looked amazing, its going to be hard. Looking amazing (I am told) is hard.
    If you go to classes with amazing teachers they will probably be more technical than not-yet-amazing teachers. They will want to share all the tricky tricks that make them look amazing. Plus they won't want to dance with you unless you can lead/follow well. Which is also hard.
    If you don't want to look/feel amazing, go to a teacher who isn't amazing. Being not-amazing (I am told) is not so hard, so getting as good as them won't be either.

    Finally, if you want to dance wcs, but prefer it to be less technical, more relaxed, less demanding and with less footwork, why not try modern jive? I hear its quite popular over here.

    If you like MJ but want to improve as a dancer in general, why not try wcs? You won’t have to moan about there not being advanced classes and teachers who take the dance seriously.

    What am I trying to say? I've forgotten. My point is, yes, you're right, but only on a Tuesday. I organized a class in Argentina for Mario, and he was brilliant at teaching a beginners class that was fun, appeared simple and made people feel good. I think thats great. But I also think its cool that wcs here has a more 'serious' culture than mj, since variety is good too.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Is this good for the future of WCS?
    For the future of West Coast Swing? No idea. I doubt it will have any impact one way or the other.

    As a percentage basis, the number of people who come out of the class being able to lead/follow the basics seems to be the same as with other good instructors. Those who didn't have prior WCS or Lindy experience seemed to get the more abstract stuff. Or perhaps better phrased, they could manage it in class with detailed instructions, but were unable to use it social dancing.

    As for whether it put students off, I don't think it much did. Some of this is likely due to he instructor being very both very good and entertaining. The entertainment value alone is worth price of admission, and he is one of those rare people who can cram tons of information into a short time span without people's eyes glazing over. Class attrition rates were negligible which is unusual, and the reviews at the end were quite positive. There were only a couple of complaints about the instructor going to fast or presenting material that was too advanced.

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