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Thread: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Good grief...

    WCS is no less a social dance than MJ. There are a lot less people doing it in the UK which is why the people learning it stick together - it's obviously easier for people to practice it with people who understand what they are trying to lead or follow. I don't have a problem with that, but I do have a problem with some WCS dancers who, having 'found' WCS, now think they are better than everyone else, and some teachers who think they are above dancing with their pupils...

    As has been mentioned, at a higher level, MJ encompases many of the same principles of frame, compression, leverage and momentum - the difference is it is much more accessible at a basic level and that's why it is so successful and why WCS suffers, because it's basic principles are more difficult to get to grips with.

    MJers can start easy and then decide how far they want to progress, whereas WCSers start with having far more concepts to understand and learn and that's simply not for everyone...

    But actually what causes the main issue is that it is very difficult to learn WCS and still enjoy your MJ at the same time - either you immerse yourself in it and take an initial step backward, or struggle with combining two different disciplines - and again, that's not for everyone.

    In my opinion WCS in this country is made as easy as it can be given the structure of the dance, and every class that I've attended (admittedly not many) has always concentrated on the basics and has never been about 'competition' moves - I simply have no idea where Andy gets that from other than hearsay.

    People often blame their inability on learning to dance on everything other than their own limitations Often the people that need the most help are the ones that don't listen and want to progress too quickly - and that's as true of beginners in MJ and beginners in WCS, or any other dance you care to mention.

  2. #22
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    My personal opinion is that WCS tries hard to be a technical orientated dance* so that it can differentiate it's self from MJ.

    * more accurately I think that the teachers try to put this spin on it because most of their pupils come from a MJ background. Need to emphasise the differences, hence the emphasis on stuff that's not blatant within MJ (& stop them taking short-cuts that are acceptable within MJ but throw off the timing of WCS.)
    If you take the view WCS is made up of doing the footwork through patterns then I completely agree.

    It doesn't need to be nearly so technically orientated; the teachers are unnecessarily putting of beginners.


    But consider this possibility:-

    • There is a feel to the dance, which when picked up makes the dance hugely more pleasant socially.


    • For most people this feel can only be picked up by learning the basics well.


    • You can step though the moves forever without ever picking up the feel.


    Is then insisting on the basics trying too hard to be technically orientated ?

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Perhaps we need two types of WCS taught. Social WCS and Competition WCS. I'd go to social WCS lessons if they were local - I'd have no interest whatsoever in learning to compete at WCS.
    Andy, there are a couple weekly WCS in the Brighton area. In the interests of furthering your research I cordially invite you to mine (I cant say where & when as that is advertising) As you may or may not know I have Competed often in the US and won on occasion in Both Freestyle & Choreographed routines. However I would say that I teach Social WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    So what do the US folks do differently to make it so easy?
    Nothing! I was taught to teach in the US, My teaching model was developed with the help of US Instructors to make sure all fundemental structure is included but geared to the UK partner dancing culture(mainly modern jive)

    That model is constantly challanged when US guest teachers are here, a very healthy peer review system!

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Is that universal? Or are there some friendly UK WCS venues?
    A very good question, who will start the ball rolling?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I don't think it is. We use something similar for teaching Lindy, and there's a lot of technical aspects to Lindy which need to be taught if the dance is to be enjoyed for what it is. The trick (or at least one trick) is to make the technical aspects seem fun and simple, rather than dull and brain-melting....
    WCS is no different (which need to be taught if the dance is to be enjoyed for what it is). It's down to the Class instructor to encourage. Fun in learning, makes a whole heap of difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    My personal opinion is that WCS tries hard to be a technical orientated dance* so that it can differentiate it's self from MJ.
    Really? WCS, like Lindy & Salsa has its own distinct structure but more importantly character. MJ is the hybrid, it is an amorphous dance style where the lack of distinct technique is a plus. Relatively speaking pretty much as a "technical orientated dance" and finally why would WCS feel the need differentiate it's self from MJ?

    Teaching WCS is my day job(only job) I personally teach upwards of 125 people in the regular class format every week. 80+ % of those come from MJ. If they dont come back I dont eat!

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Good grief...
    WCS is no less a social dance than MJ ~snip~ .
    I thoroughly agree!

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    That does makes me wonder which classes he has attended...

    As said ^ - maybe the problem is with him..., or maybe he just didnt click with a particular teacher he's been learning from.
    You know what it's like learning new things, - some people/teachers make learning easy,... others, - don't!
    This particular student is very keen, I see him at least once a week at a class or a dance often twice. I think he started his MJ journey with us, also tried other classes but mostly came to our classes regularly to get to grips with MJ. Nowadays he travels about a bit and regularly goes to other MJ classes and events. He's now a fair bit better than average at MJ and usually comes just for the freestyle.

    I got the impression that he'd been to quite a few different local WCS classes and found they all made the dance too complicated for him at the entry level. I would say that when he came to us he was better than the average new student because he actually listened. He can hear the 8 counts and follows instructions. My impression, and it's only an impression because I've not seen the lessons, is that the WCS lessons he's attending are going to quickly or assuming some prior knowledge. In other words they are not aiming their beginners lessons at absolute beginners.

    When it comes to teaching absolute beginners I'm on firmer ground. I do a lot of it. As someone who can dance you need to totally recalibrate your thinking when it comes to absolute beginners. Not only can absolute beginners not dance, many of them have a load of bad habits and inhibitions which prevent them from getting the slightest thing right first time. It's NOT a competition and we are not there to judge or grade our absolute beginners. We are there to teach them to dance. It's no always an easy path and some people decide there are easier paths, that is their choice. But it's our job as teachers to guide the people who are keen to stay on the path.

    We are dance teachers and should be able to take an able bodied person and place their feet on the path that leads them to at least do the basics. In this case we are talking about a student who has worked hard to become good at MJ and is motivated to learn a new dance. We are talking about a student who has been to quite a few WCS lessons with at least 2 different teachers. And we are talking about a student who has been made to think the dance is probably too complicated for him to learn.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    I have been to one WCS lesson. It was great fun (because David and Lily are awesome teachers), but also from a viewpoint of watching a large group of reasonably good dancers (the twyford xmas crew party) trying to learn it wasn't a pretty sight (that includes me). In fact if it wasn't for the fact that we were all laughing so much - going its hard, *** do we do with our feet - i could see how this could lead to frustration amongst a MJ who tries to switch.

    My viewpoint, was that it was interesting and that combined with the fun I had in the Chillout room at Camber, means I am going to do a 4 hour workshop and then a 6 week course with Cat Wiles at some point in the near future I hope.

    I can completely see how Andy's student could get disheartened. I would say that a 4 hour immersive workshop or an hours one on one with a teacher might be the way to get started with WCS. If only to get you out of the MJ mindset. It would also take your mind off the nerves and frustration and ensure you are surrounded by others at your level or by an expert who can put you at ease.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    Andy, there are a couple weekly WCS in the Brighton area. In the interests of furthering your research I cordially invite you to mine (I cant say where & when as that is advertising)
    I've done my search and see that your Brighton class is on a Tuesday. I'm afraid I run a class that night, otherwise I'd have been delighted to take you up on your invitation.

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    Registered User jive-vee's Avatar
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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    we are talking about a student who has been made to think the dance is probably too complicated for him to learn.
    I honestly don't mean this in a nasty way but maybe it is.

    Or maybe it's too complicated for him to learn right now.

    Or maybe he wants to progress more quickly than he should.

    As a follower it took me a long time to feel comfortable dancing and following the basics in wcs, I imagine it would take a lot longer as a leader. If you say he is fairly proficient in MJ it could be that he's frustrated with beginners patterns/basics. Rather than dancing these basics to different tracks and trying to hit parts of the music, experimenting with different hand holds etc and discovering how to lead a variety of partners he may feel he wants to impress them or himself with flash moves he sees others do. If that's the case then he is making it too hard on himself as he won't have the technique to lead the flash moves, the follower won't understand where he wants her to go and it will just lead to confusion and or frustration all around.

    A friend of mine (who was an amazing modern jiver and had done ballroom dancing and is now an amazing westie) took me to my first wcs workshop a few years ago and told me how she struggled with it at first. I then accepted that this wouldn't be a dance that I would pick up as quickly as modern jive. You really do have to stick at it and accept that there are peaks and troughs with learning this dance.

    I'd suggest new westies just be a bit kinder to themselves and see how they feel after months and months of regular lessons and social practise of the BASICS!

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by jive-vee View Post
    I honestly don't mean this in a nasty way but maybe it is.

    Or maybe it's too complicated for him to learn right now.

    Or maybe he wants to progress more quickly than he should.
    These are common problems when learning any new skill. And they are problems for the teacher to address rather than the student.

    If it's too complicated for a motivated beginner it's being made too complicated by the teacher.

    If people want to progress more rapidly than they are able they need to have their expectation adjusted or be offered a route to fast-track them through the early stages of the learning curve. Again, this is the teacher's job.

    This situation puts me in mind of martial arts. When you first start learning you expect to be doing high kicks with an opponent and breaking housebricks. But when you first attend you are made to walk up and down a cold hall doing simple kicks and punches at the air in front of you. You do this for many, many lessons but you are made to understand that you are being trained to do those things we went to learn and told when you should expect to reach the level where you can break things with your bare hands.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    If people want to progress more rapidly than they are able they need to have their expectation adjusted or be offered a route to fast-track them through the early stages of the learning curve. Again, this is the teacher's job.
    I don't believe there is a fast-track to this dance - although taking a private lesson with Paul Warden may help. (This is my opinion - he is one of two teachers I have had a private with and I would highly recommend them both to others).

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This situation puts me in mind of martial arts. When you first start learning you expect to be doing high kicks with an opponent and breaking housebricks. But when you first attend you are made to walk up and down a cold hall doing simple kicks and punches at the air in front of you. You do this for many, many lessons but you are made to understand that you are being trained to do those things we went to learn and told when you should expect to reach the level where you can break things with your bare hands.
    In effect, this is exactly what regular learning, practice and drilling of the basics or fundamentals in WCS does. Until these have been mastered, and understanding of how the lead transmits to the follow is developed then there is little point in attempting anything more complicated within the dance.

    The people who are really good at this dance didn't get there in a matter of weeks and are still constantly learning and developing.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    These are common problems when learning any new skill. And they are problems for the teacher to address rather than the student.
    So if a horse can't learn to read, it's because there badly taught? Or could it be something to do with the horse being a horse that's the more significant problem? There are plenty of cases where failure to learn is not because the material is badly taught, but because the person (or livestock) being taught isn't capable of learning the material.

    A couple of other big issues are at play here. Firstly, extrapolating from one person's experience. Secondly, judging WCS by the standards of MJ.

    Thus far, all your responses have resisted the notion that it's the student's responsibility, despite the fact you've not actually seen the teachers in question. Believe it or not, people tend to see things the way they want to. If someone struggles to learn something, the default reactions are usually "it's not being taught properly" or "they're making it too hard". The idea of, "actually, I'm not really good enough" or "this is going to take me a long time to learn" are low on the list. This is no judgement on the individual. I know some dance styles I pick up easily; there are others I struggle with. This is true of most people.

    One of the most important differences between WCS and MJ is MJ is typically taught as moves. Learning moves is much, much easier than learning how to dance. Thus people progress rapidly in MJ and some of them will struggle to learn other styles that are less focused on moves. In other dance disciplines, they think nothing of spending years mastering the basics. Believe it or not, being hard isn't bad. WCS is not MJ and if it's harder to learn at the start, this is because of the more basic differences.

    I know I've not excelled at WCS for the simple reason I don't put enough effort into it. I don't expect to excel easily and I know that learning to dance properly takes a long time (measured in years, not weeks). Given I don't really have the time to do that, I don't expect to in the short term. I certainly don't want WCS dumbed down to make it easier just so I can learn it. That would defeat the whole purpose of learning a dance that's more technically demanding that your average MJ venue. I may never learn WCS properly; but that's all about me, not about WCS.

    I expect the standard of WCS to decline over time. This is a simple numbers game. In the UK, WCS has based itself primarily on more dancers who take dancing seriously and a generally pretty good at dancing. As it becomes more broadly popular, the 'average' ability of WCS dancers will regress towards the mean, and consequently, the standard of average standard WCS dancing will fall. I do wonder if, in the absence this MJ, this has already happened in the US.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Virtually anything is going to be hard to learn if you chatter your way through a lesson, or don't pay much attention. Add to that the fact that people coming from one dance discipline to another have, far too often, a tendency to think they already know half of it, so they tend to either not pay attention to anything that looks a little famiar, or to re-interpret it into more familiar terms. Which can often slow down, or even completely block their learning. Whereas someone coming in fresh and open-minded may well find it much easier.....

    Exactly my thoughts. People tend to expect people to pick things up quickly and easily, and getting the good basics won't necessarily happen like that. I find the classes easy because I listen - it's the confidence to freestyle i find harder.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Is that universal? Or are there some friendly UK WCS venues?
    Bicester's great - fairly small so lots of help & attention, lots of fun, and friendly more experienced people who help if asked/dance with everyone.



    Although I'm not interested in competitions, there is a big focus on the big events in the calendar being competition based. This onus isn't from teachers, but just what helps create the 'stars' & the buzz. But wanting to be a good social dancer shouldn't prevent me or anyone else learning alongside people wanting to dance in competitions. I think a lot of the stigma/culture comes from people who may try it once and don't take to it, or people who've not tried it at all. Like anything new, if you find the right venue for you, then you may enjoy it and progress quicker.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Why is something that looks hard 'not really a social dance'? Is Argentine Tango not a social dance? Because that's always looked hard to me...
    In my experience, WCS is much harder than AT. However, tango makes no secret of the fact that learning to dance is difficult and learners are expected to take a long-term and humble approach to their development. Classes and workshops are often focussed around individual practice of basic techniques such as walking, posture and listening to the music. It's not assumed that beginners know anything about partner dancing. But, yes, it's still social.

    Despite its difficulty, I've yet to see that kind of emphasis on basic technique in WCS, although moves are broken down into endless, pernicketty detail. As Jive-vee says, the result was leaders who were ambitious in terms of moves but lacked the basic technique to clearly lead a simple but enjoyable dance to the music.

    Is that universal? Or are there some friendly UK WCS venues?
    Hard to give a blanket judgement. The venues that I attended had very friendly aspects (among the rank and file and the organisers) but also suffered from the stereotypical up-their-own-*rses brigade who were obsessed with their their success in competitions. There was much more hierarchy than in MJ venues.

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    ...If it's too complicated for a motivated beginner it's being made too complicated by the teacher.
    ...
    As usual, Andy has an axe to grind but won't or can't mention who he's having a dig at...

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    As usual, Andy has an axe to grind but won't or can't mention who he's having a dig at...
    I'm not one to be backward in coming forward when I have digs at individuals.

    This time I've got no teacher or classes in mind. I thought I'd said that earlier. I'm mostly commenting about the mind-set that I keep hearing about in relation to WCS. As an outside observer I thought I was helping by saying what I'm hearing. Some teachers might take what I've said as personal criticism because they are the kind of teacher who doesn't embrace the fact that beginners are worse than a blank sheet of paper. But it wasn't meant personally.

    The only fact I've heard so far is that the inference that the dance is too hard for a horse to learn The rest has been opinion.

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This time I've got no teacher or classes in mind. I thought I'd said that earlier..
    No, course not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This particular student is very keen, I see him at least once a week at a class or a dance often twice...

    I got the impression that he'd been to quite a few different local WCS classes and found they all made the dance too complicated for him at the entry level...

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    No, course not...
    As I said, I'm not getting at any class in particular. The first conversation I had was with a couple who don't dance in the Brighton area so I'm not picking on local classes.

    Besides, what would be the problem if classes changed to make the point of entry easier? They'd retain more students. I'd say that accepting you're putting off absolute beginners is a good thing.

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I expect the standard of WCS to decline over time. This is a simple numbers game. In the UK, WCS has based itself primarily on more dancers who take dancing seriously and a generally pretty good at dancing. As it becomes more broadly popular, the 'average' ability of WCS dancers will regress towards the mean, and consequently, the standard of average standard WCS dancing will fall. I do wonder if, in the absence this MJ, this has already happened in the US.
    An interesting and very valid point, but as a social dance with structure there should plenty of room for everybody and why not so long as those at the top continue to inspire.

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    Bicester's great - fairly small so lots of help & attention, lots of fun, and friendly more experienced people who help if asked/dance with everyone.

    .
    Its part of our ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    In my experience, WCS is much harder than AT.
    Really

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post

    Besides, what would be the problem if classes changed to make the point of entry easier? They'd retain more students. I'd say that accepting you're putting off absolute beginners is a good thing.
    Make the learning process as fun as possible!

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    Make the learning process as fun as possible!

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    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Besides, what would be the problem if classes changed to make the point of entry easier? They'd retain more students. I'd say that accepting you're putting off absolute beginners is a good thing.
    I appreciate that putting off new students is a bad thing, and agree with MikeyR that learning to dance should be fun for the students.

    That said, there is a certain basic level of technique that you can’t really afford to dip below in many dances, and WCS is one of those. At the very least, you can’t dip below it without serious implications for the long-term growth of your students.

    Personally, I don’t think the base level for WCS needs to be particularly high for WCS, although I try to add as many pointers as I can that might help people who are ready to take them on board without bogging down the class. A short list of the things I consider absolutely essential to cover in a beginners course would be:

    • Followers stick to their slot and try to find the end of it.
    • Leaders start the patterns by stepping down the slot rather than off it, and then get out of the followers way.
    • The post is set just before the anchor step.
    • The anchor step should have both the leader and the follower stretching away from each other.


    There are other things we mention, but these are the points we really emphasise in our beginners class and that we want our beginners to get the feel of as they are what will help them get out and dance socially. It doesn’t look like too much on paper, but a lot of people have trouble with even this. We don’t expect everyone to get it immediately of course, and our classes are structured so that there’s lots of time for them to practice it, but even so some struggle much more than others.

    The temptation is to make it easier again for those who are struggling, but I don’t feel it’s really fair to the other members of the class or that we would then be doing a particularly good job of teaching WCS if we started dropping any of those above mentioned four points at an entry level.

    So in short, there’s a balance that has to be struck somewhere. In MJ it’s a little bit easier because there’s not such a reliance on technique initially. As Straycat has pointed out though, it’s a trickier balance in some other dances.
    Last edited by NZ Monkey; 6th-April-2010 at 10:12 PM.

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