Page 1 of 12 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 240

Thread: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

  1. #1
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Randomly I had two conversations about WCS yesterday. They both seemed to be saying the same thing.

    Paraphrased conversation 1 with an experienced WCS dancer: I've been learning WCS for a while: in the USA it's an easy social dance. But it's not promoted that way in the UK. One of the top teachers from the USA who is also a very clever guy was visiting the UK and told them that WCS in the UK was taking the wrong road as it seemed to be seen primarily as a competition dance. This makes the dance seem complicated.

    Conversation 2 with one of my own MJ students: I've started learning this really difficult dance. But I don't think I'll ever get it. It's so complex. I think I might give it up.

    So we've got a dance that's so hard an experienced and motivated MJ dancer thinks it's too hard to learn. Could the reason be that he's being taught how to enter WCS competitions rather than learn a "simple social dance"?

  2. #2
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Belfast
    Posts
    8,925
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    If its seen as 'difficult' or a 'competition' dance then its definitely the culture that is being cultivated that is the reason, not the dance itself.

    I'm removed from all that, we have a very 'early stages' WCS culture here in NI, perhaps some the dancers in the rest of the UK would belittle what we're doing, but the focus is on having fun. I don't get along to the local classes because they clash with something else, but I dance WCS pretty much every week when out at MJ venues and for me its about having fun and playing with the music. I like it because as a follower it seems to give me more 'space' to be playful - so that's what I do, rather than tie myself up in knots about technical accuracy.

  3. #3
    Registered User emmylou25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Banbury
    Posts
    554
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    I'm fairly new to WCS, and I think there's a mix of things going on with WCS scene in the UK.

    There're certain venues which because there's a large contingent of more experienced dancers who obviously want to dance with each other/enter competitions, this means it appears less friendly to newcomers and when you watch these people dance (applies to any technical dance really) it looks really difficult. In a large class it's also harder to pick up any technical requirements/guidance, whereas smaller classes are easier to get feedback/dance with the teachers etc, all of which make things seem friendlier as you get to remember faces/more chance of everyone dancing with everyone else and therefore can learn more from other people.

    The other part which probably makes it seem hard is when people come with either no dance background or ceroc - ie no technical background, learning in a class environment which in many classes have people more concerned with socialising/chatting as they rotate, and therefore aren't used to learning technical aspects/having to listen as they learn. There's one guy who I know from ceroc who goes to the same WCS class as me, and he never listens in either class (turns up late, chit chats and really does his own thing) - he says he finds it hard to learn, and is a nightmare to follow as he doesn't lead the way he's taught...if he listened, copied and practised he'd be a much better dancer.

    Personally I find learning the patterns/techniques etc are easy because:
    a) I've had a lot of technical training in the past and am used to listening to specific details in various dance styles over the years, and
    b) the dance is broken down into lots of detail.

    The hardest part I find is moving from learning moves/techniques to getting enough confidence to freestyle with people I may not have danced with before. This is totally at odds with what I found in ceroc when I started as the culture there was to encourage everyone to dance with everyone else. From my (limited) experience, I think the social aspect of WCS is more akin to that in salsa where dancers only really freestyle with similar level to themselves, which can mean it takes people longer to improve.

  4. #4
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Thanks Emmylou. I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I think your observations confirm what I'm hearing.
    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    this means it appears less friendly to newcomers and when you watch these people dance (applies to any technical dance really) it looks really difficult.
    Made to look difficult - not really a social dance.

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    The other part which probably makes it seem hard is when people come with either no dance background or ceroc - ie no technical background, learning in a class environment which in many classes have people more concerned with socialising/chatting as they rotate, and therefore aren't used to learning technical aspects/having to listen as they learn.
    So technical it's hard to learn in a social setting.

    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    From my (limited) experience, I think the social aspect of WCS is more akin to that in salsa where dancers only really freestyle with similar level to themselves, which can mean it takes people longer to improve.
    Anti-social with beginners.

    So there you have it. In the USA WCS is an easy social dance. In the UK it's a technical dance were people aren't very sociable, especially with beginners.

    Do I have any other agenda in starting this thread? Not really, I just had a couple of unprompted conversations that got me thinking, that's all.

    Possibly the Ceroc teaching formula is too social for people to learn WCS and the ballroom class format might work better. But only if you think that WCS is primarily a technical dance rather than a social dance.

  5. #5
    Registered User Dottie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    431
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post

    A But only if you think that WCS is primarily a technical dance rather than a social dance.
    Something a very good US WCS teacher said in a class recently is that "WCS is an educated dance. You cannot muscle someone through a WCS dance". It is technical and it is not an easy dance. It becomes easier with practise and that is what partially determines rate of progess.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Hove Actually
    Posts
    7,924
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    West Coast Swing is a beautiful and elegant dance with very few basic moves, and should be reasonably easy to teach and learn - however I do agree that too much emphasize is made to compete, nothing wrong with that and in fact us Brits are doing extremely well in America, and I personally am very proud of that fact

    - but it confirms Andy's theory that it is mainly being taught as a competition dance and therefore it may appear more difficult to learn as the fun bit is sometimes missing.


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  7. #7
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,544
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Go and talk to the Linedancers - they see it as very different from a "competition" dance, it's very much part of the social scene along with Night Club 2 step. The impression you may be getting about WCS is obviously coloured by the people you speak to.

    My take on it is that it's a nice enough dance & handy to understand the framework so that I can dance to slower stuff than Lindy will work to

  8. #8
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by clevedonboy View Post
    Go and talk to the Linedancers - they see it as very different from a "competition" dance, it's very much part of the social scene along with Night Club 2 step. The impression you may be getting about WCS is obviously coloured by the people you speak to.

    My take on it is that it's a nice enough dance & handy to understand the framework so that I can dance to slower stuff than Lindy will work to
    I think it should be a social dance, but then I don't do WCS. I've done a few workshop and a few classes but not enough to say I know the dance.

    I'm not really speaking to anybody about WCS. My opinion is coloured by a couple of recent conversations and the silly reactions we got when WCS was the exhibition category at Britrock.

    Perhaps we need two types of WCS taught. Social WCS and Competition WCS. I'd go to social WCS lessons if they were local - I'd have no interest whatsoever in learning to compete at WCS.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Hove Actually
    Posts
    7,924
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by clevedonboy View Post
    Go and talk to the Linedancers - they see it as very different from a "competition" dance, it's very much part of the social scene..........
    Really I was under the impression that it order for Line Dancers to gain their medals (bit like ballroom) they needed to include a 'partner' dance. Bit like a means to an end ......


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  10. #10
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Made to look difficult - not really a social dance.
    I don't follow. Why is something that looks hard 'not really a social dance'? Is Argentine Tango not a social dance? Because that's always looked hard to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    So technical it's hard to learn in a social setting.
    That's not quite what she said (at least - the that's not quite the way I read it). Virtually anything is going to be hard to learn if you chatter your way through a lesson, or don't pay much attention. Add to that the fact that people coming from one dance discipline to another have, far too often, a tendency to think they already know half of it, so they tend to either not pay attention to anything that looks a little famiar, or to re-interpret it into more familiar terms. Which can often slow down, or even completely block their learning. Whereas someone coming in fresh and open-minded may well find it much easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    So there you have it. In the USA WCS is an easy social dance.
    So what do the US folks do differently to make it so easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In the UK it's a technical dance were people aren't very sociable, especially with beginners.
    Is that universal? Or are there some friendly UK WCS venues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Possibly the Ceroc teaching formula is too social for people to learn WCS and the ballroom class format might work better. But only if you think that WCS is primarily a technical dance rather than a social dance.
    I don't think it is. We use something similar for teaching Lindy, and there's a lot of technical aspects to Lindy which need to be taught if the dance is to be enjoyed for what it is. The trick (or at least one trick) is to make the technical aspects seem fun and simple, rather than dull and brain-melting....

  11. #11
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by clevedonboy View Post
    ... so that I can dance to slower stuff than Lindy will work to
    Such as? I've not really come across such...

  12. #12
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I don't think it is. We use something similar for teaching Lindy, and there's a lot of technical aspects to Lindy which need to be taught if the dance is to be enjoyed for what it is. The trick (or at least one trick) is to make the technical aspects seem fun and simple, rather than dull and brain-melting....
    The difference is that Lindy Hop is a social dance with real enthusiasts who are evangelical about the dance. On the other hand, the competitive element that seems to pervade WCS makes it less friendly - after all, if it's all about competition you're not training "partners", you're training "opponents".

    Having said that I've heard it's mostly about competing, I've heard that Paul Farrell's classes are fabulous and friendly - if a little loud

  13. #13
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Nr Cambridge
    Posts
    3,696
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post

    in the USA it's an easy social dance. But it's not promoted that way in the UK. One of the top teachers from the USA who is also a very clever guy was visiting the UK and told them that WCS in the UK was taking the wrong road as it seemed to be seen primarily as a competition dance. This makes the dance seem complicated.
    'seemed to be seen'? By whom? This is not a view that I or, I think, many of the other people who dance WCS regularly in this country would subscribe to. I think there's a strong competition culture in US WCS as well as a social side (hence the large number of conventions over there offering opportunities for competition) In all the WCS classes and workshops I have attended I can count on one hand the number that have focussed on competition (and these are usually put on at student's request) Pretty much every class/workshop I have done has featured lead/follow material which is what underpins any kind of social dancing.

    Conversation 2 with one of my own MJ students[/U]: I've started learning this really difficult dance. But I don't think I'll ever get it. It's so complex. I think I might give it up.
    I've. I. I'll. I. I. To me, this says a lot more about that student than the dance.

  14. #14
    Registered User jive-vee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Bath
    Posts
    731
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    I think a lot of people are too hard on themselves and expect too much too soon. Unlike MJ, WCS is not a dance that you can pick up after one lesson or even six lessons. It can take months (or longer depending on whether you get to go to weekly classes or monthly workshops) to truly feel comfortable dancing the basics in freestyle and a lot longer than that to begin to master it.

    As for the competition thing, in both MJ and WCS there are people who want to compete, people who want to be able to dance it socially, people who want to master the technicalities of the dance and people that want a combination. The weekly classes that I used to attend (before they finished ) was taught in a very entertaining way by a teacher who wanted to create good social dancers. My interpretation of this was that he wanted us to be able to dance it with any other leader or follower that we would meet, regardless of whether he was also their teacher.

    I genuinely think that a lot of people who say it is too hard are just not realising that the learning curve is very different with this dance. When I started I was only able to attend the odd workshop here and there. I therefore had to make the most of weekender workshops and the friendly westies I knew who would make me stick at it during social dancing. It was only early last year (after a couple of months of weekly lessons) that I realised I was comfortable with the basics; this was when I was finally able to chat and dance and was able to dance without thinking too much.

    I'm still very much a beginner but edging towards more of a beginner intermediate now. I definitely love the dance though, which is why I spend time and money on trying to get better at it.

  15. #15
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    'seemed to be seen'? By whom?
    Hey, I can't remember his name One of the experts that we have shipped over here to teach the UK how to dance WCS. Maybe someone else was there and could tell you who it was. This is the second time I've been told this story so it's obviously something that is known by a few people.

  16. #16
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Oxford
    Posts
    677
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think it should be a social dance
    Why on earth should it fit your definition of a social dance? It clearly doesn't, which is fine. What I don't get is why should WCS change because you don't like it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Perhaps we need two types of WCS taught. Social WCS and Competition WCS. I'd go to social WCS lessons if they were local - I'd have no interest whatsoever in learning to compete at WCS.
    Just because most MJ venues think that you have to dumb a dance down and remove all technical elements to make it socially acceptable, I'm not sure why that standard should apply to any other dance style.

    If the WCS community finds there's a problem with attracting people to the dance, then they might want to change their approach to the dance. That or accept that it becomes a niche dance for people who want to dance that particular style.

    The idea that technically good dancing is only good for competitions is another one I really struggle with. Technically good dancing makes the person a better dancer. This makes them better to dance with - in either a social or a competitive setting. The split between technique and social dancing creates a false dichotomy.

    WCS isn't actually that technically challenging. The basics are pretty basic. That said, it takes more than a few weeks to pick up the basics and do them reasonably competently. For some people, even the faintest hint of anything vaguely difficult scares them off. A reasonably proportion of people who've done MJ of one sort or another are not actually very good dancers (in terms of any technical knowledge of partner dancing). This is easily exposed by the relatively low levels of technical difficulty that WCS introduces. People who struggle to pick up a new dance in a few weeks can easily blame the dance. Personally, I'd look more closely at the dancer.

    And, before anyone jumps on me for this - at the advanced levels, WCS is a technically challenging dance. But so is MJ. The people who are good in either discipline are just good dancers. The difference is simply that WCS has been taught in a way to lay the foundations for this advanced technique right from the start. That has two effects. Firstly, it makes the dance slightly more challenging to start with (and it really is only slightly). Secondly, it lays a clear progression from beginner to professional.

  17. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    East Kilbride, Sco
    Posts
    903
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post

    So we've got a dance that's so hard an experienced and motivated MJ dancer thinks it's too hard to learn. Could the reason be that he's being taught how to enter WCS competitions rather than learn a "simple social dance"?

  18. #18
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    1,156
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    One of the top teachers from the USA who is also a very clever guy was visiting the UK and told them that WCS in the UK was taking the wrong road as it seemed to be seen primarily as a competition dance. This makes the dance seem complicated.
    A significant part of US pros impressions of the UK may come from giving private lessons to a selected few. As such it might not be generally applicable.

  19. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Cruden Bay (Aberde
    Posts
    7,053
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    My personal opinion is that WCS tries hard to be a technical orientated dance* so that it can differentiate it's self from MJ.

    * more accurately I think that the teachers try to put this spin on it because most of their pupils come from a MJ background. Need to emphasise the differences, hence the emphasis on stuff that's not blatant within MJ (& stop them taking short-cuts that are acceptable within MJ but throw off the timing of WCS.)

  20. #20
    Registered User Phil_dB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    535
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Is West Coast Swing Made Too Hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    ...clever guy was visiting the UK and told them that WCS in the UK was taking the wrong road as it seemed to be seen primarily as a competition dance.
    So how exactly is it being promoted then? Did he elaborate on what has given him this impression?


    I'm new to WCS, but I haven't heard anything from any teacher promoting competitions, - but, a few fellow WCS punters have raised the subject with me though...

    ...so is it really being promoted to be competition orientated? Or is it just the culture that some of the punters seem to creating for themselves?.. ..maybe fuelled from a combination of seeing many of their fellow talented peers aiming for competitions, & a desire to be recognised for all the time, effort & money they've put into learning WCS (?).



    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post

    Conversation 2 with one of my own MJ students: I've started learning this really difficult dance. But I don't think I'll ever get it. It's so complex. I think I might give it up.
    That does makes me wonder which classes he has attended...

    As said ^ - maybe the problem is with him..., or maybe he just didnt click with a particular teacher he's been learning from.
    You know what it's like learning new things, - some people/teachers make learning easy,... others, - don't!



    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I've heard that Paul Farrell's classes are fabulous and friendly
    They are


    Different style of teaching & feel to the class, but i'd still use both those ^^ adjectives to describe Paul Warden's classes at S.Norwood.




    Interesting thread Andy

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. West Coast Swing Judges at Britrock 2008
    By Andy McGregor in forum The Land of a 1000 dances
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 19th-September-2008, 10:25 AM
  2. West Coast Swing near Nottingham?
    By Jan in Notts in forum The Land of a 1000 dances
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 21st-July-2008, 04:18 PM
  3. A new West Coast Swing Workshop/Tea Dance ??
    By Minnie M in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 23rd-January-2008, 10:24 PM
  4. Lindy / West Coast Swing difference?
    By Emma in forum The Land of a 1000 dances
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 21st-September-2007, 03:44 PM
  5. West Coast Swing in Dartford
    By Chef in forum The Land of a 1000 dances
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 27th-May-2006, 05:24 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •