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Thread: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

  1. #61
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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr View Post
    Don't buy her this t-shirt then.

    SpinDr

    You know ... I had no idea they were still selling those. Frankie mentioned them in a workshop many many years ago... but I'd not actually seen one 'till now.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Come on Martin, get with the programme. Do you like "Jiggly"?
    Been thinking about it, can't come up with a good one yet...
    Has to start with an M to rhyme. I like rhyming.

    How about Man Mountain Martin (been hitting the beers lately)... and seeing as I teach Lifts, many girls have climbed the mountain...


    Quote Originally Posted by spindr View Post
    Don't buy her this t-shirt then.

    SpinDr
    I am happy to go on 5

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Great! Then you wouldn't mind explaining what you mean by an 'extra turn'?
    We're all confused (I'm having a confused day ) So in the absence of Skippy and as an ardent student of hers... its over to you Alan

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    We're all confused (I'm having a confused day ) So in the absence of Skippy and as an ardent student of hers... its over to you Alan

    Lissome Lory
    good one Lithe Lory, nice that you are 'flexible' with your name

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    How about Man Mountain Martin (been hitting the beers lately)... and seeing as I teach Lifts, many girls have climbed the mountain...
    Sorry, it's really got to have something to do with the way you move or be dance related. How about Mambo Martin? or Arty Marty?

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    Re: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle
    In WCS, if you are doing a whip you release the lady on 4
    In Lindy, if you are doing a swingout, you release the lady on 6 (causes her to do an extra turn)
    Ummmmm, I know where you’re coming from regarding the lead in the whip, but I think you’ll be very hard pressed to find anyone who actually dances a basic whip that way. You may not lead directly after the 4 (although you can, and some very good people do) but almost everybody “releases” after the five as the lady travels down the slot and away from the leader.

    In other simple whip variations things change quite considerably. A whip with an inside turn often requires the leader to release immediately after the 4 to avoid an accidental boob grab, and the outside turn variation requires a certain amount of leading through the 4. In short, it’s not always that simple.



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle
    There are a number of things that are different e.g. timing

    We count it differently

    e.g. First Move (with no return)

    In Melange this is 8 beats (4 Ceroc/MJ Counts)
    In MJ this is 10 beats (5 Ceroc/MJ Counts)
    How you choose to count it has no bearing on how the dance works physically. If it did then counting in another language would change the dance as well. The MJ count, as much as I hate it personally, still acknowledges every beat just as much as a straight count does.

    Note that the technical aspects of rolling count can also be danced to a straight count, so I’m disregarding that as a teaching tool rather than a fundamental part of the timing of the dance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle
    How we lead Melange is different...it's a body lead dance. MJ is an arm lead dance
    That depends very much on who your teacher is and how much they care about body leading (I suspect on both sides of the Atlantic). I don’t think you’ll find a comprehensive manual anywhere on MJ that includes any reference to the differences between body and arm leading, let alone condoning one over the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle
    In Melange you dance on the downbeat, in MJ you dance on the upbeat
    What exactly do you mean by that?

    Note: This is a particular pet hate of mine, so please be careful to be specific rather than simply cutting and pasting a brief description from Skippy’s website or something similar if you choose to answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle
    We consider Melange to be one of the foundation dances and everyone should learn Melange before learning more difficult dances.
    Who is “we”, and how many people actually do? I mean, I’d never heard of it before this thread, and apparently it’s only been around in Skippy’s lifetime which rules out quite a few generations of people who apparently didn’t have the foundations.

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    Registered User Whitebeard's Avatar
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    Re: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Aye. As practised in Lindy, it's about where movement originates - which is never the feet, but always in your core. To say one's hand does not move relative to one's body .... it's a good starting point when teaching body leads, but the techniques quickly go very much deeper than that. For a simple example - there was a much earlier discussion on another thread about the concept of body-leading a step back, while stepping back oneself.
    I'm happy enough to accept the 'core' concept and that, for the sake of relative simplicity, movement may be considered to start at the core.

    However the forces which cause that movement surely originate in complex interactions in realtime between the body's musculature, the force of gravity acting upon the body, the point of balance of the body and, in the context of dancing, the forces generated at the connection/s between the partners. Not to mention two minds and nervous systems initiating and mediating all this (together with any other factors such as inertia and momentum I have not brought into discussion).

    A major and constant component in the transmission of the forces generated is the feet with all the intricacies of their contact (or momentary/intermittent lack of contact) with the floor, modified by the levels of friction encountered.

    So I ask myself whether the core, if it can be considered to have physical substance, can move itself without there being some initiating forces (however minimal) acting between feet and floor and consequently some trace movement at this level.

    I have to conclude (though I may be open to persuasion) that 'the core' is indeed a concept rather than a physical entity, which probably serves a useful purpose in trying to explain the subtleties of a 'body lead'; but that, in fact, the lead is conveyed by the interaction of forces and movement at the points of physical connection with partner and floor.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Your talking to Skippy would clarify why she teaches to realise on count 6 and do the extra turn. I am not confused that she teaches it this way.
    Alan
    You may well have gone and done all the Skippy Blair workshops but it seems you like to quote her on every occassion. I know from past history (I am now talking about myself) that it can be easy to presume that you had picked up all the tips but still do it wrong.

    Could it be that you may have made a mistake here!!

    Lastly if your asked a question its good manners to give a real answer using your own experiences rather than Skippy's.

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    Re: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard View Post
    However the forces which cause that movement surely originate in complex interactions in realtime between the body's musculature, the force of gravity acting upon the body, the point of balance of the body and, in the context of dancing, the forces generated at the connection/s between the partners. Not to mention two minds and nervous systems initiating and mediating all this (together with any other factors such as inertia and momentum I have not brought into discussion).

    A major and constant component in the transmission of the forces generated is the feet with all the intricacies of their contact (or momentary/intermittent lack of contact) with the floor, modified by the levels of friction encountered.

    So I ask myself whether the core, if it can be considered to have physical substance, can move itself without there being some initiating forces (however minimal) acting between feet and floor and consequently some trace movement at this level.

    I have to conclude (though I may be open to persuasion) that 'the core' is indeed a concept rather than a physical entity, which probably serves a useful purpose in trying to explain the subtleties of a 'body lead'; but that, in fact, the lead is conveyed by the interaction of forces and movement at the points of physical connection with partner and floor.
    Nerd!

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    Re: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard View Post
    I'm happy enough to accept the 'core' concept and that, for the sake of relative simplicity, movement may be considered to start at the core.

    snip

    I have to conclude (though I may be open to persuasion) that 'the core' is indeed a concept rather than a physical entity, which probably serves a useful purpose in trying to explain the subtleties of a 'body lead'; but that, in fact, the lead is conveyed by the interaction of forces and movement at the points of physical connection with partner and floor.
    It is rocket science after all!!

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    Re: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard View Post
    I have to conclude (though I may be open to persuasion) that 'the core' is indeed a concept rather than a physical entity, which probably serves a useful purpose in trying to explain the subtleties of a 'body lead'; but that, in fact, the lead is conveyed by the interaction of forces and movement at the points of physical connection with partner and floor.
    Nice point... however - you'd probably be better off directing this one to skippy@stepfordwcs.com.... ahem. Sorry. Don't know what came over me.

    It's more than just a concept. Your core muscles are very real, and there's many nice definitions around - try here, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard View Post
    ...
    ...
    So I ask myself whether the core, if it can be considered to have physical substance, can move itself without there being some initiating forces (however minimal) acting between feet and floor and consequently some trace movement at this level.
    Yes, the rest of your musculature is involved. Think of it this way - you have your core, and you have your connection points with floor (feet), and partner (hands / arms).

    To start a Lindy bounce, I start to compress downwards from my core muscles, and the forces travel down through my legs (think of them as springs), through my feet, and to the floor. To lead my partner in, say, a rock-step, I start a core movement toward my partner, and the forces travel through my arm (think spring again), hand, her hand, her arm, to her core. Body lead connection is very much about core-to-core connection, using connection points such as hands, arms, etc.

    Hope this helps. It'd be much easier just to show you, if geography weren't an issue....

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    Re: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Hope this helps. It'd be much easier just to show you, if geography weren't an issue....
    That's the problem. It seems that I have my free period when all my friends have geography

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    Re: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard View Post
    I'm happy enough to accept the 'core' concept and that, for the sake of relative simplicity, movement may be considered to start at the core.

    However the forces which cause that movement surely originate in complex interactions in realtime between the body's musculature, the force of gravity acting upon the body, the point of balance of the body and, in the context of dancing, the forces generated at the connection/s between the partners. Not to mention two minds and nervous systems initiating and mediating all this (together with any other factors such as inertia and momentum I have not brought into discussion).

    A major and constant component in the transmission of the forces generated is the feet with all the intricacies of their contact (or momentary/intermittent lack of contact) with the floor, modified by the levels of friction encountered.

    So I ask myself whether the core, if it can be considered to have physical substance, can move itself without there being some initiating forces (however minimal) acting between feet and floor and consequently some trace movement at this level.

    I have to conclude (though I may be open to persuasion) that 'the core' is indeed a concept rather than a physical entity, which probably serves a useful purpose in trying to explain the subtleties of a 'body lead'; but that, in fact, the lead is conveyed by the interaction of forces and movement at the points of physical connection with partner and floor.
    Perhaps this might be a better way of thinking about it for you?:

    When body leading that complex mechanical system you refer to works in concert to provide a motion that moves the core in space as the initial part of the lead.

    Strictly speaking other muscles apart from the core are involved, as is friction with the floor etc. The end result though is that aside from a bit of flexing it's the core which moves first.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Your talking to Skippy would clarify why she teaches to realise on count 6 and do the extra turn. I am not confused that she teaches it this way.
    OK... let's make this a little easier.

    is a randomly selected Youtube vid of some basic (if uninspired) swingouts.
    is a randomly selected YouTube vid of Skippy doing a basic whip.

    While the timing differences are pretty clear, I still cannot see what you mean by an 'extra turn' - maybe with this visual aid, you can point it out?
    Last edited by straycat; 17th-March-2010 at 11:59 AM.

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    Re: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

    Take a breath hold your nose closed and breathe out. The bit you feel tensing in your torso is your core. Note your ears will pop this is not your core

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    Re: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    Take a breath hold your nose closed and breathe out. The bit you feel tensing in your torso is your core. Note your ears will pop this is not your core
    And there was me thinking it was your diaphragm.

    But while we're talking about breathing I'd like the attention of the smokers on the forum. You have a high risk of COPD. And before it kills you it will make you wish you were dead. To simulate just one symptom of COPD you need to fill your lungs with air and breathe out just a little bit, now re-fill your lungs with air and breath like that for a long as you can. This is one small part of COPD. And you won't even be symptomatic until you've lost half of your lung function

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    COPD (Engelbert)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And there was me thinking it was your diaphragm.

    But while we're talking about breathing I'd like the attention of the smokers on the forum. You have a high risk of COPD.
    Congratulations on the most jarring topic-change yet, Mr Thank-You-For-Not-Smoking McGregor

    Having said that, I'd not heard of COPD before, so looked it up. Yeugh. I don't think I'd be wanting any of that. Makes me even more glad I quit. So. How high a risk? Got any handy statistics?

    [EDIT]Oh - and maybe this deserves its own thread?
    Last edited by straycat; 17th-March-2010 at 01:56 PM.

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    Re: COPD (Engelbert)

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Congratulations on the most jarring topic-change yet, Mr Thank-You-For-Not-Smoking McGregor
    I'm like a butterfly

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Oh - and maybe this deserves its own thread?
    Here

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