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Thread: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    For me, it comes down to the music, which shapes dances like Lindy & WCS right down to the core. WCS has simply, IMO, evolved away from swing. Lindy hasn't. Anyway - I'm sure we've done this one to death on other threads.

    I'm curious about this formula though. Could you expand on that?

    (Silver Mine! Ahem.)
    some examples...

    In WCS...on 1&2 the lady does a walk, walk and the man does a back and replace
    In Lindy...both partners do a rockstep on 1&2

    In WCS, if you are doing a whip you release the lady on 4
    In Lindy, if you are doing a swingout, you release the lady on 6 (causes her to do an extra turn)

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    Re: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

    Mod note.. I've moved a chunk of recent posts from here to a new thread HERE
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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Melange (4-Count Swing) & MJ may share the same basic patterns but they are separate dances and taught/danced very differently.

    Melange is considered a swing dance but I would not consider MJ to be a swing dance.
    MJ certainly is a swing dance. IMHO what defines a swing dance is the springy tension between partners and MJ has plenty of that.

    p.s. When I dance with Lory there's added sexual tension - but that carries on after the music stops - or is that a dream I had

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    So, when you were telling us thatwhat exactly were you trying to say? It seems like you're making a pretty significant U-turn on the matter at the moment.
    There are a number of things that are different e.g. timing

    We count it differently

    e.g. First Move (with no return)

    In Melange this is 8 beats (4 Ceroc/MJ Counts)
    In MJ this is 10 beats (5 Ceroc/MJ Counts)

    How we lead Melange is different...it's a body lead dance. MJ is an arm lead dance

    In Melange you do a rock step on 1&2 of every pattern

    In Melange you dance on the downbeat, in MJ you dance on the upbeat

    All Melange patterns are 8 beat (4 Ceroc/MJ Counts), so most Melange patterns can be converted to East Coast Swing (using Single Rhythm), East Coast Swing (using Triple Rhythm), Jump Swing (using Delayed Single Rhythm), 3-Count Hustle. You just need to know the formula.

    We consider Melange to be one of the foundation dances and everyone should learn Melange before learning more difficult dances.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    some examples...

    In WCS...on 1&2 the lady does a walk, walk and the man does a back and replace
    In Lindy...both partners do a rockstep on 1&2
    Not necessarily. There's a whole host of things we can, and do do in place of a rock step, for a whole host of reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    In WCS, if you are doing a whip you release the lady on 4
    In Lindy, if you are doing a swingout, you release the lady on 6 (causes her to do an extra turn)
    Again - no. There are different schools of thought on this - the most common is to let go before the end of 5, but there is no hard-and-fast rule on this. What is the 'extra turn' that you're referring to?

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    Re: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

    Slightly OT (but then, what isn't in this thread! ), IMO, Lindy is a swing dance not just because it's danced to swing music and not because someone says it is.

    I've heard swing bands that don't swing and seen/danced Lindy with people that don't swing.
    Lindy has a certain feeling (which I can't describe) and a look that just tells you that those people are swinging. However, I've never seen any MJ or WCS that looks like swing to me.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post

    MJ is an arm lead dance
    There are some who would disagree with this!!!

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    To say the least. It's more of a body lead, weight transfer dance not pully pully arms

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    There are some who would disagree with this!!!

    Yes - it's often taught as an arm-led dance. It is not, however, inherently so.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Not necessarily. There's a whole host of things we can, and do do in place of a rock step, for a whole host of reasons.
    I know there is a whole host of things you can do but that's one example.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Again - no. There are different schools of thought on this - the most common is to let go before the end of 5, but there is no hard-and-fast rule on this. What is the 'extra turn' that you're referring to?
    This is a question for skippy@skippyblair.com

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    I know there is a whole host of things you can do but that's one example.
    Yep - including the footwork you specified for WCS dancers (walk walk for the follower, back replace for the leader) - so if you're talking about a formula for translating moves (which I believe we were), it doesn't get you very far...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    This is a question for skippy@skippyblair.com
    I beg to differ - you're the one talking about an extra turn in the swingout. I don't believe she is an active participant in this discussion. I'm asking the person who made the reference - namely your good self.

    To my knowledge, the standard whip effectively involves a 360 degree turn, so lead and follow end up where they started. As does the standard swingout. So... where does this 'extra turn' come into it?

    (to avoid confusion, I'll just say I'm using American nomenclature here - so in this context, swingout=lindy turn, not swingout from closed)

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Forgive my ignorance but isn't the key timing of a WCS Whip the same as a Dean Collins Style Whip? - after all that's where it comes from. The key moment is on beat 5 (certainly after beat 4). Incidentally in the Hollywood (Dean Collins) Lindy style the Lady walks into the swingout / whip just like WCS.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Yep - including the footwork you specified for WCS dancers (walk walk for the follower, back replace for the leader) - so if you're talking about a formula for translating moves (which I believe we were), it doesn't get you very far...

    I beg to differ - you're the one talking about an extra turn in the swingout. I don't believe she is an active participant in this discussion. I'm asking the person who made the reference - namely your good self.

    To my knowledge, the standard whip effectively involves a 360 degree turn, so lead and follow end up where they started. As does the standard swingout. So... where does this 'extra turn' come into it?

    (to avoid confusion, I'll just say I'm using American nomenclature here - so in this context, swingout=lindy turn, not swingout from closed)
    That's the way I learnt it from Skippy, if you have any questions...ask her about it.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    That's the way I learnt it from Skippy, if you have any questions...ask her about it.
    Alan
    Do yourself a favor and stop mentioning Skippy Blair.

    All your answer's seem to come from Skippy Blair rather than your own experiences

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    That's the way I learnt it from Skippy, if you have any questions...ask her about it.
    So you learnt it from Skippy, but you can't explain what the extra turn that you're referring to means?

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Alan
    Do yourself a favor and stop mentioning Skippy Blair.

    All your answer's seem to come from Skippy Blair rather than your own experiences

    Alan - if you are unable or unwilling to stand behind or explain the points you make in a debate like this, I will be forced to conclude that you have little or no understanding of those points, or of the subject matter.

    I have to ask - would I be correct in drawing this conclusion?

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post

    Alan - if you are unable or unwilling to stand behind or explain the points you make in a debate like this, I will be forced to conclude that you have little or no understanding of those points, or of the subject matter.

    I have to ask - would I be correct in drawing this conclusion?
    That's the way Skippy teaches it, that's the way I learnt it from Skippy if you have a question as to why she instructs people to do it that way, considering Skippy has been dancing Lindy for over 70 years and this was her first dance that she learnt back in the late 1930s and she has been very influential in the swing community for a little over 55 years, I would say that Skippy would be better able to answer your question than I would be.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    That's the way Skippy teaches it, that's the way I learnt it from Skippy
    Skippy taught you the Lindy Hop swingout?

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    Re: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Slightly OT (but then, what isn't in this thread! ), IMO, Lindy is a swing dance not just because it's danced to swing music and not because someone says it is.

    I've heard swing bands that don't swing and seen/danced Lindy with people that don't swing.
    Lindy has a certain feeling (which I can't describe) and a look that just tells you that those people are swinging. However, I've never seen any MJ or WCS that looks like swing to me.


    This reminds me of Fats Waller's legendary oh-so-unhelpful answer when asked by a lady what 'swing' was: "Lady - if you gotta ask - you ain't got it." I know I can't explain it.

    And as shown on this thread, when applied to dancing, if you ask three different people, you'll get three different answers.

    The way I look at it - the original swing dances came about effectively as a result of groups of people messing around on dance floors to swing music. The rhythms, which are, while often very complex, essentially (I'm told) simplifications of older (far more complex) African drum rhythms - and they permeate every aspect of the dance - the more you dance to this stuff, the more you start to feel this right from your gut...

    It's incredibly addictive. And incredibly hard to explain... but to me, it all stems from the music.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    I would say that Skippy would be better able to answer your question than I would be.
    Is Skippy on the forum?
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