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Thread: Teaching Qualifications

  1. #141
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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post

    Now as a little more experienced I understand about the CTA, but its not a be all and end for me, although its nice to know that the teachers have gone through some formal training. Its reputation that would cause me to seek out Simon and Nicole for example or Amir or Nigel and Nina.
    See u Thursday then

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    Excuse the ramble
    Excused

    I would agree with everyone you say . All the Ceroc classes I have attended, are better than the average independent* class . That is not say some independent* classes are not as good, or even better than Ceroc, just on average Ceroc is better. I suspect Mike E does permit mediocrity

    A poll? Yes, but what are the questions and options . Can we decides what these should be, before we put poll up

    * Yes Andy, I know Ceroc franchisees are independent but I think Independent has become the accepted term, on this forum, for a non Ceroc operator

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    A few assorted thoughts.

    Firstly, to adequately train teachers, you need a bunch of things. The most important is a clear curriculum and progression within that curriculum. In dancing terms, that would translate into a set of techniques and moves that should be taught, organised into a number of different levels. The ceroc model of 'beginner' and 'intermediate' moves really isn't even close to being enough for that. Most MJ follow that model.
    What more would you expect in terms of techniques and moves than what is taught? And how can you band different levels of them?

    The problem I see with setting a curriculum is that it has a definitive start, progression and end: you can't drop in and out of it as it suits you: you can't chose to learn at your pace (it has to be the teacher's pace).

    Secondly, you need some means of assessment. This is to tell if the teachers actually know the curriculum or not, but is also commonly used to assess the students. Assessing the students gives you a basis to evaluate whether or not students are learning from the teacher. That is really the best measure of a teacher's quality (student ratings are biased towards popularity, not learning).
    And this introduces a competitive edge, enhances discrimination, and segregates people in an activity that promotes folk coming together in a relaxed, social, non-competitive, all inclusive way.

    Personally I see the assessment (and competitions) within MJ to be in direct opposition to the key element of social acceptance and 'dance with anyone' culture.

    Thirdly, you need the process for teaching the curriculum. The simple level, of how to break down moves and explain them is done pretty well. There's also awareness of different ways of communicating ideas, telling, seeing, etc. Some teachers seem to do this really well; others less so. On top of that, you have the more abstract processes of structuring a series of classes to build progressive improvement over time. That seems less well thought through in most MJ venues I've been to.
    This would make for better teachers - the skills involved in creating material to 'teach'.

    (As far as I know, Ceroc does a lot of this for you: giving you step by steps in creating lessons and how to teach them.)

    But teaching is a career in it's self; you are asking hobbyists to take on a second career along with the pressures, stress and time commitments but without any great reward.
    Fourthly, you have the management issues, from classroom mechanics to the basic business, insurance and other issues that teachers need to be aware of. By and large, the ceroc system seems to be adopted and generally works well.
    But it's not likely to happen, because the issues I outlined above are a long way from being agreed within the MJ community. The one organisation with the (market) power to do it shows no inclination to do so.
    I think they are already doing it - Where do you think the biggest flaws lie in the current system?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Well blow me down with a feather.... .

    It certainly looks like MJ.
    eugh I hate to agree, but it does - badly.
    The only differences I can see are:
    - constant 'circular' motion. (lack of floor craft discipline - MJ may devolve into this, but it's not taught that way)
    - default double hand hold. (MJ default is single handed)
    - I could be wrong, but I'm sure it was taught with feet coming together after the step back; a settling step. (this just encourages a 'yank' at the end of the line in MJ)
    - It's taught with an underlying stepping in/out pattern. (MJ is more about lead/follow and breaks this pattern all the time.)


    Does it matter how something is taught if the end result is the same?

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    * Yes Andy, I know Ceroc franchisees are independent but I think Independent has become the accepted term, on this forum, for a non Ceroc operator
    That doesn't mean we can't change. Are non-Microsoft software developers "independent"? Are non-McDonalds fast-food restaurants "independent"?

    And the other thing that can change is that "independent" operators could, with more training, raise their game

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Yes.

    If you're big enough then you're a Oracle or IBM or SAP. Or a WIMPY, Burger King, Subway. Otherwise you're an independent software house like Rage. There is no such challenger in the MJ world (possibly Ginger Jive, but I don't know how big they are) to Ceroc and hence the term independent would apply to any non-ceroc setup. I suggest the term franchisee is used for Ceroc owned independents.

    Of course fracturing is human nature, so even if Andy achieved his Utopia it would descend into chaos in a few tens of years. Just look at boxing or some of the alledged incidents over champs at Blackpool

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    A nationwide qualification to teach MJ...

    Sometimes one needs to address reasons why "it might not work" to get to "how it could work".

    So looking to the why not, to see if there is a way to change this to a how it will work... Here are some of the why nots...

    Firstly a super qualified teacher could still be a below average educator (just think of your school days or Uni days), in the same way that standing in a car yard does not make you a car.

    To draw a parallel of independants, I will take you to Australia, where there is competition and established companies not too far removed from the UK model.

    In Sydney there are 3 main MJ companies, they each have a process of training their teachers.

    They are in competition and I cannot see them wanting to get together and train thier teachers in the same way, as they all think they have "a certain edge" over the other.

    For example from observation, in my opinion, one company places greater importance on fun and the overall evenings event, another company places greater importance on the actual lesson content. Who is right or wrong, well I do not see a right or wrong, I see that there is a difference and it is up to the customer to decide which they like best.

    The companies I do know about, have training schemes put together by skilled educators, presenters and senior dance teachers, along with the company owner. Many of the points Amir raised and some extra points are addressed and practiced. I have been actively involved in being trained and assisting the training, for one of these major companies. The only bit missing being "a certificate".

    Now looking at the wider picture, you also have Brisbane, Gold Coast, Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne and Canberra, all of whom think they offer "a certain edge" and they have thier own "in house" way of training thier teachers and they are proud to do it "thier way".

    I cannot see the Queenslanders being told to do a New South Wales certificate before they can teach, and I cannot see it happening the other way round.

    Each company has thier own quality control system, some better than others, but most involving teacher feedback sheets, where an experienced, well respected observer, observes the lesson and makes ticks in boxes and notes to feed back to the teacher and to the company owner.
    Sometimes they know they are being observed, sometimes they do not know they are being observed.

    It would be wrong for me to go into specific detail, as it is the interlectual property right of the specific company owners as to how they conduct thier in house training. What I can say, is that it is comprehensive and covers most of the points one would expect it to cover and some more points on top.

    The one thing noone has control of, is the stray, less than fully competant person, who opens up his or her own event. I guess this is the person Andy is most concerned about, as it gives a bad overal flavour of the dance, to those who are new to the dance form and decide to attend this event.

    These do not often last long, or are poorly attended, as the more experienced dancers who go along, tend to talk to the other dancers about where else they themselves dance and why.

    If this lesson is the only one in the area, in my experience, it does not take too many years for someone "better" to open up down the road and draw the dancers to them.

    However, that "unqualified" cowboy, who opens up independantly with no formal qualifications to teach, could turn out to be a great teacher and event organiser. In which case the classes could well florish and everyone is happy.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    eugh I hate to agree, but it does - badly.
    The only differences I can see are:
    - constant 'circular' motion. (lack of floor craft discipline - MJ may devolve into this, but it's not taught that way)
    - default double hand hold. (MJ default is single handed)
    - I could be wrong, but I'm sure it was taught with feet coming together after the step back; a settling step. (this just encourages a 'yank' at the end of the line in MJ)
    - It's taught with an underlying stepping in/out pattern. (MJ is more about lead/follow and breaks this pattern all the time.)

    Does it matter how something is taught if the end result is the same?
    Again to reiterate, that clip is probably not a very good example of Mélange, I don't like the way he teaches it.

    I've already talked about 'circular' as opposed to slotted.

    The default hand hold is not necessarily double handed, it's just those patterns he was demonstrating most of them used double hand hold

    The way we teach the basic footwork is different than shown in this clip, both partners do a rock step on 1 and 2 of every pattern.

    I've been meaning to record some basic patterns and put them on youtube...I might do this over the next few weeks.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Secondly, you need some means of assessment. This is to tell if the teachers actually know the curriculum or not, but is also commonly used to assess the students. Assessing the students gives you a basis to evaluate whether or not students are learning from the teacher. That is really the best measure of a teacher's quality.
    One only has to look at our education system today to have concerns about this one. In theory, it sounds good, but in practice, it often seems to produce a raft of teachers who prioritize the training of their pupils to pass assessments over and above training them in the subject matter.

    If I want to assess a teacher, I'll observe them while they teach.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This bit is a bit ambiguous;Is there not enough repetition or do we not recognise when there's been enough repetition?
    Many teachers I have seen don't allow enough repetition, in my opinion. The moves are repeated often, but a move is a string of movements, and its hard to concentrate on improving any given movement if you are thinking about what comes next. So allowing repetition is only useful if you can;

    a) identify which movement needs more work (observation)
    b) isolate that movement, or the skill that allows that movement (how to deconstruct a move)
    c) allow enough repetition for there to be some improvement.
    d) allow enough repetition of the move for the improved movement to be integrated into the whole
    e) do all the above without creating student dependence.
    f) insert either toilet or sexual humour so the process isn't too dry. There are two schools of thought as to where the humour should be inserted, but between the thighs has always worked for me.

    If you repeat a movement many times without there being improvement you are training students to do something badly. Which is why poorly taught students are slower in learning good technique than complete beginners. If a movement isn't done well you are better off not doing many repetitions.

    Difficult moves that haven't been mastered should probably be retaught the following week, which means:
    - you'll get better at teaching them.
    - students will get better at dancing them.
    - insert sexy joke here
    - people will be weened off the obsession with new moves.
    Last edited by Amir; 9th-March-2010 at 07:56 PM.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Many teachers I have seen don't allow enough repetition, in my opinion. .....
    ......Difficult moves that haven't been mastered should probably be retaught the following week, .
    Amir, you are one of the few teachers, who seem to understand this

    But having mentioned this to other teachers, they explain students feel cheated if moves are repeated the following week

    May be this is, to some extent, the teacher own fault, as they have not explained the essence of trying to become being a competent dancer is not about learning lots of moves

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    If I want to assess a teacher, I'll observe them while they teach.
    That would work perfectly, if you were an expert in the subject matter. If you're not, then you'd be an ignorant judge. That's the same problem with customer surveys and reviews: they typically reflect an emotional reaction, not an expert judgement based on knowledge and experience.

    To extend your analogy. If someone were teaching basic arithmetic, I can easily judge if they knew what they were doing or not. If they were teaching advanced calculus, then I'd have no idea (well, not unless they were so far wrong even I couldn't miss it). If the person doesn't know what they're talking about, then they might make the class feel good while teaching them 2+2 = purple.

    I guess a lot of people see teaching dancing as the former. Personally, I prefer not to dumb it down that much.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    The problem I see with setting a curriculum is that it has a definitive start, progression and end:
    Well, don't you *want* people to progress?

    you can't drop in and out of it as it suits you: you can't chose to learn at your pace (it has to be the teacher's pace).
    I've seen a fair amount of Lindy teaching discussion, and there seems to be a consensus that it's *very* hard to improve beyond a basic level through drop in classes. It's the flip side of "no progression"

    Obviously Lindy isn't MJ, but given these are people who've tried both options (drop in classes and progressive courses running over several months), I think their experience is worth noting. Particularly as the "hard to improve beyond a certain level" comment is *very* common amongst Modern Jivers.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Obviously Lindy isn't MJ, but given these are people who've tried both options (drop in classes and progressive courses running over several months), I think their experience is worth noting. Particularly as the "hard to improve beyond a certain level" comment is *very* common amongst Modern Jivers.
    For what it's worth our WCS students have come much further with progressive block courses than drop in classes at an introductionary level.

    We've started teaching our intromediates in a similar fashion with four-week "theme" set of ideas and techniques. They're still drop-in classes at that level but the idea is that you get the most benefit from them if you can make them all, and we hope will be better than just randomly picking routines to teach.

    It'll be a while yet before we can judge the results, but fingers crossed!

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    That would work perfectly, if you were an expert in the subject matter. If you're not, then you'd be an ignorant judge.
    I concur.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    To extend your analogy. If someone were teaching basic arithmetic, I can easily judge if they knew what they were doing or not. If they were teaching advanced calculus, then I'd have no idea (well, not unless they were so far wrong even I couldn't miss it). If the person doesn't know what they're talking about, then they might make the class feel good while teaching them 2+2 = purple.
    Again, I concur. I'm unclear as to why this would make indirect assessment of a teacher better than direct assessment. Which, I assume, is your point... perhaps you could clarify?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I guess a lot of people see teaching dancing as the former. Personally, I prefer not to dumb it down that much.
    An interesting point. I'm of the latter type - the sheer quantity of technique I instinctively want to put into a class would not go down well at any MJ venue I've been to. My partner, on the other hand, tends to be more focussed on inspiring students, and on ensuring their enjoyment of a class.

    I believe that ideally, you need to combine both approaches to make a good class - but if you had to choose one, concentrating on student enjoyment will get you more success than focussing on technique (especially when dealing with beginners). Let's face it - there's no benefit in teaching great technique to someone who never comes back. Retention is the key (this technique-vs-retention thing is one of those huge can-of-worms topics, but I'll stop here for now)

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Again, I concur. I'm unclear as to why this would make indirect assessment of a teacher better than direct assessment. Which, I assume, is your point... perhaps you could clarify?
    The point is that the teachers in this example would have passed those pesky assessments to demonstrate their knowledge. Yes, assessment of all sorts is flawed and political. But they are generally considerably less flawed than the subjective judgement of individuals - which was the alternative you were suggesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I believe that ideally, you need to combine both approaches to make a good class
    Absolutely no argument from me on this point: a good teacher should do both. The great teachers do do both with finesse. But the subjective judgement of individuals that I just maligned is probably what determines retention ("did I have fun?") It is important, and very appropriately assessed by whether or not people turn up the next week. However, that doesn't tell you if the students are learning anything that's actually useful.

    What I dislike is the conflation of, "did I have fun?" with, "did I learn anything useful?" This is the ceroc business model - at least at my local venue, to the extent that the owner has openly said he's more interested in dragging new people through the doors than in retaining the experienced dancers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Difficult moves that haven't been mastered should probably be retaught the following week
    A lot of what Amir talks about is a good process for teaching in a class - something that can be learnt and, to some level, is what the CTA course seems to teach. But it's his final point that I find most interesting. I do know a few teachers who do this in various ways, but it's not consistent. One thing I'd like to see is teachers picking some basic technical theme and teaching a movement that emphasises that theme every week or two for a few months. Once most people have truly mastered that technique, drop it down to a less regular cycle and pick something else to focus on. Again, a lot of the better teachers seem to do this either because they know what they're doing or because they get it intuitively.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Well, don't you *want* people to progress?
    Just because a progression has a start and and end, doesn't mean it's a bad thing, particularly if the end is far beyond the current standard that most people get to (and there will always be the open ended option of people going on to figure it out for themselves; in academia, this is what a Ph.D should be). The point is, can you raise the standard overall? I think you can and I think it's a good thing to do.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    In my own experience I tried Ceroc on a Monday night and Ginger Jive on a Tuesday night 18 months ago when I started MJ and Ceroc won hands down.

    ...

    Now as a little more experienced I understand about the CTA, but its not a be all and end for me, although its nice to know that the teachers have gone through some formal training. Its reputation that would cause me to seek out Simon and Nicole for example or Amir or Nigel and Nina.
    Interesting / for the record -- Kerrin (and possibly Luci) who run GJ are CTA trained -- and Simon and Nina have taught for multiple weeks at GJ -- Nigel certainly used to teach at events, but I can't remember whether he ever taught regular classes. Unfortunately, we haven't had the pleasure of Nicole teaching at Newbury yet

    SpinDr

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr View Post
    Nigel certainly used to teach at events, but I can't remember whether he ever taught regular classes.
    He did, yes. For Ceroc, IIRC.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    The point is that the teachers in this example would have passed those pesky assessments to demonstrate their knowledge. Yes, assessment of all sorts is flawed and political. But they are generally considerably less flawed than the subjective judgement of individuals - which was the alternative you were suggesting.
    In point of fact, it was not the alternative I was suggesting.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Fabulous write up. I'd expect nothing less from Amir.

    This bit is a bit ambiguous;Is there not enough repetition or do we not recognise when there's been enough repetition?

    I have a problem with this on a regular basis. I think I do too much repetition. I have to remind myself that I shouldn't keep repeating the move until that last guy gets it. Sometimes they never do and I could still be there at the break of dawn ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Many teachers I have seen don't allow enough repetition, in my opinion. The moves are repeated often, but a move is a string of movements, and its hard to concentrate on improving any given movement if you are thinking about what comes next. So allowing repetition is only useful if you can;

    a) identify which movement needs more work (observation)
    b) isolate that movement, or the skill that allows that movement (how to deconstruct a move)
    c) allow enough repetition for there to be some improvement.
    d) allow enough repetition of the move for the improved movement to be integrated into the whole
    e) do all the above without creating student dependence.
    f) insert either toilet or sexual humour so the process isn't too dry. There are two schools of thought as to where the humour should be inserted, but between the thighs has always worked for me.

    If you repeat a movement many times without there being improvement you are training students to do something badly. Which is why poorly taught students are slower in learning good technique than complete beginners. If a movement isn't done well you are better off not doing many repetitions.

    Difficult moves that haven't been mastered should probably be retaught the following week, which means:
    - you'll get better at teaching them.
    - students will get better at dancing them.
    - insert sexy joke here
    - people will be weened off the obsession with new moves.
    Thanks for the comprehensive answer.

    Perhaps I'm not doing too much repetition after all

    The flipside of this comes from the dancers in the group lesson who got the move/movement on the first teaching - or have it from the previous time it was taught or get the move really quickly. You feel an unspoken pressure from the people getting the move to get on to the next part of the lesson. This pressure seems to increase as more and more students start getting it right. And when you're down to just one or two guys who haven't got it the pressure to move on with the lesson is almost deafening.

    The correct action would probably be to ask the guy(s) who are struggling to sit out the rest of the lesson rather than continue to repeat the movements the wrong way and get them into their muscle memory. However, this would be unthinkably humiliating for them. I have thought of one solution that works, at least partially. I have a "sticky crew" policy. When a guy is really struggling I manipulate the number of ladies I move on to pair a crew member with this particlar guy. Then, at the next rotation I say "can Val stick with her partner and everybody else move on 3 ladies". This usually means the guy stops doing the wrong movements - he still might not be doing the right movements but he stops practicing the wrong ones and I can move on with the lesson - which is nice for everybody else!

    N.B. There might be some readers of the Forum who ask, "can people get it so wrong for so long when there's a teacher on the stage showing them and telling them how to do it?" Those readers have never taught a lesson to dancers of mixed ability including complete novices! Thinking back no further than last night, there was an experienced dancer who consistently started with the wrong hand hold until I'd repeated "guy's right, lady's right" about 4 or 5 times - the problem was that the first-night beginner next to him was copying his hand hold rather than watching and listening to the teacher! And that was before anybody had attempted anything as complicated as actually moving.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    Dancers who have progressed the furthest are well placed to know who is and is not a good teacher and the knowledge and critique filters through to everyone.
    I agree but IMO the dancers who've progressed the furthest, have nearly always gained their experience from a wider range of dance styles, than simply MJ and 'that's' what makes them better.

    I think MJ classes are widely recognised as an easy and fun 'entry' into the world of partner dance. (which is to be commended) But I don't know many dancers, once when they've reached a certain level, seeking out in-depth technique from MJ teachers.



    The risk that 'unqualified' teachers present to 'dance virgins' is minimal.
    I agree IMO the most important teaching ingredient for 'dance virgins' is the ability of the teacher to make them enjoy it!

    For the time being, at least, a bit-of-paper for teaching MJ can only ever be a marketing tool to use on 'dance virgins'. That is to say, it may help a commercial operator make more money, but is otherwise of no real use to anyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    There are people within the LeRoc Federation who are keen to do this. There is already a medals system in place. It's just that nobody does them at the moment.
    Thank God for that!

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Well blow me down with a feather.... .

    It certainly looks like MJ.
    I actually felt quite sick watching that clip.. it was almost hypnotic, round and round and round and round and round and round.........
    Last edited by Lory; 10th-March-2010 at 01:03 PM.
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