Page 7 of 13 FirstFirst ... 34567891011 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 140 of 241

Thread: Teaching Qualifications

  1. #121
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    188
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    N.B. The one thing that still worries me is Modern Jive itself. In ballroom and Latin American the dance is very clearly defined. In Modern Jive the definition isn't that clear. I think that part of the joy of Modern Jive is that lack of a clear definition - you can dance MJ in very different ways and still be doing the same dance. But is does mean the examiners are required to have a flexibility when judging students.
    That's not quite true, Mélange (GSDTA Modern Jive Syllabus) is a very defined dance.

  2. #122
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    That's not quite true, Mélange (GSDTA Modern Jive Syllabus) is a very defined dance.
    does it matter if no one has heard of it ?

  3. #123
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Auckland, NZ
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    That's not quite true, Mélange (GSDTA Modern Jive Syllabus) is a very defined dance.
    Would you please explain what the GSDTA has to do with MJ?

    Considering that MJ is virtually unknown in America, and most of those that do know of it view it in a particularly poor light, I'd say their thoughts on the matter aren't terribly relevant.

    Or, to put it another way, who really cares what they think? They have no involvement or influence within the MJ community.

  4. #124
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    410
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    N.B. The one thing that still worries me is Modern Jive itself. In ballroom and Latin American the dance is very clearly defined. In Modern Jive the definition isn't that clear. I think that part of the joy of Modern Jive is that lack of a clear definition - you can dance MJ in very different ways and still be doing the same dance. But is does mean the examiners are required to have a flexibility when judging students.
    But why is this a worry? Why judge students at all? I'm confused what this has to do with the thread.

  5. #125
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    But why is this a worry? Why judge students at all? I'm confused what this has to do with the thread.
    Not much to do with the thread at all. Well spotted! However, it has much to do with the way we judge schools. People select their schools based on academic achievents. If this were the case in dance schools there'd need to be exams. However, there's exams in Ballroom and I never hear that a Ballroom dancing school has 90% Highly Commended. So my comment about exams for students as a way of judging classes is probably irrelevant.

    As you were...

  6. #126
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    410
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    For anyone interested, the following is some of what I think teacher training for modern jive should consist of. My most basic assumption is that a teacher should already be a competent dancer.

    Basically, most Modern Jive teachers I have seen are good at creating a rapport with the class, good at organizing rows and rotations, creating fun routines and calling out the movements with the right rhythm. What often needs more work is:

    How to maintain everyone’s attention (you see a lot of people talking at the same time as the teacher in MJ classes. Obviously you may consider your class a social gathering, but you can make time for people to talk, and then get their attention) There are various easy to implement techniques for grabbing attention in a room, which teachers are taught.

    How to run a warm up: Some movements need warming up for. Teachers should understand the sports science rudiments of warming up for when teaching such movements. The most basic thing is that a warm up should include movements that relate to the movement you are warming up for.

    How to deconstruct a movement into its components: This is the process ballet and martial artists go through; the most complicated movements are broken up into easy to master components. It’s a skill that can be taught and developed, and is why so many great dancers make poor teachers, since its people who have struggled that have had to master this to achieve anything.

    How to deconstruct the timing of a move: In otherwords, figure out which part happens on which beat, which means most teachers will need to count twice as fast as they currently do.

    Repetition: How to recognise when enough repetition has been done. Most classes I have seen don’t do this enough in my opinion.

    How to use your voice: Most classes use microphones, but you should know how to take care of your voice, and you should know that if you have a microphone you don’t really need to shout. Also, most teachers could use their voice far less, although its hard!

    How to create student independence: Most modern jive dancers do not learn to become independent learners – they often can not do the routine unless the teacher is doing it with them. The reason this is bad teaching should be obvious. If a movement or routine is taught well there won’t be people looking up at the stage by the end of the class.

    How to count the music in to begin at the start of a phrase or bar: This has been discussed a lot on the forum elsewhere.

    How to teach connection: Many Modern Jive classes don’t, but there are lots of fun exercises which help teach connection, so why not learn them and why not teach them?

    How to teach footwork: Whatever footwork pattern you think works, in my opinion you should know how to teach it, even though you may often choose not to.

    How to structure a class:
    Once you have decided on the moves you are teaching, there will be a logic to creating a class that leads towards mastering these moves.

    How to structure a series of classes: Most teachers run weekly classes, and its worth learning how to structure a month or longer unit of time to cover all the skills you hope to teach.

    Observation: This is part of the above, and includes knowing when something has been learnt. Its sometimes hard to tell, but if people look stressed, then something may be wrong. Basically, observation is one of the most important things, since you need to adapt what you know and create new ways of teaching based on what you observe.

    [I'm not claiming perfection at the above, just saying that I think its important.]

  7. #127
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Fabulous write up. I'd expect nothing less from Amir.

    This bit is a bit ambiguous;
    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Repetition: How to recognise when enough repetition has been done. Most classes I have seen don’t do this enough in my opinion.
    Is there not enough repetition or do we not recognise when there's been enough repetition?

    I have a problem with this on a regular basis. I think I do too much repetition. I have to remind myself that I shouldn't keep repeating the move until that last guy gets it. Sometimes they never do and I could still be there at the break of dawn ...

  8. #128
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Oxford
    Posts
    677
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    A few assorted thoughts.

    Firstly, to adequately train teachers, you need a bunch of things. The most important is a clear curriculum and progression within that curriculum. In dancing terms, that would translate into a set of techniques and moves that should be taught, organised into a number of different levels. The ceroc model of 'beginner' and 'intermediate' moves really isn't even close to being enough for that. Most MJ follow that model.

    Secondly, you need some means of assessment. This is to tell if the teachers actually know the curriculum or not, but is also commonly used to assess the students. Assessing the students gives you a basis to evaluate whether or not students are learning from the teacher. That is really the best measure of a teacher's quality (student ratings are biased towards popularity, not learning).

    Thirdly, you need the process for teaching the curriculum. The simple level, of how to break down moves and explain them is done pretty well. There's also awareness of different ways of communicating ideas, telling, seeing, etc. Some teachers seem to do this really well; others less so. On top of that, you have the more abstract processes of structuring a series of classes to build progressive improvement over time. That seems less well thought through in most MJ venues I've been to.

    Fourthly, you have the management issues, from classroom mechanics to the basic business, insurance and other issues that teachers need to be aware of. By and large, the ceroc system seems to be adopted and generally works well.

    None of that is rocket science. It's done in most of the more established forms of dance and a lot of MJ teachers have done some other form, so would have encountered a more robust pedagogy than ceroc offers. Some teachers do some, or all, of the above, either deliberately or intuitively. I don't believe that teaching teaching will make everyone a great teacher. But I do believe that, like most forms of education, if done well, it will raise the overall standard - it will improve the OK teachers, and make the great teachers even better.

    But it's not likely to happen, because the issues I outlined above are a long way from being agreed within the MJ community. The one organisation with the (market) power to do it by fiat shows no inclination to do so.

  9. #129
    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    r=1-sin(wt)
    Posts
    1,301
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Carrying on with the driving instructor analogy ... cars (in vaguely their current form) had been around about 20 years before local councils in the UK introduced local licences in 1903. These were superseded by a national system in 1930. Examiners didn't have standardised training until 1959. I'd say we're only up to about 1900 with MJ.

    A couple of other examples

    One of my friends teaches archery at the weekends. There is no legal requirement to hold any kind of qualification to do this. However, insurers require you to be a teaching qualified member of a national organisation or they won't insure you. Hence my earlier post about insurance.

    Another of my acquaintances runs a chess club. Again, no requirement to be able to teach. No specific insurance requirement this time either. His pupils receive his guidance for next to nothing. If they want to pay for advice, there are lots of people out there who will relieve you of your money, but few of them are qualified to teach. Instead, chess players trade only on their reputation.

  10. #130
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    188
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    does it matter if no one has heard of it?
    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Would you please explain what the GSDTA has to do with MJ?

    Considering that MJ is virtually unknown in America, and most of those that do know of it view it in a particularly poor light, I'd say their thoughts on the matter aren't terribly relevant.

    Or, to put it another way, who really cares what they think? They have no involvement or influence within the MJ community.
    GSDTA Teachers taught this form of dance under a different name since the 1970s. In the 1970s, GSDTA taught this form of dance as 2-Hand Salsa. You may also know it as 4-Count Swing, 4-Count Hustle or 4-Count Jive. Skippy recently changed the name to Mélange which means a "mixture of things" in French

    It has all the same basic patterns but there is much more emphasis on timing, technique, teamwork, footwork, body leading, styling and musicality.

  11. #131
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Auckland, NZ
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    GSDTA Teachers taught this form of dance under a different name since the 1970s. In the 1970s, GSDTA taught this form of dance as 2-Hand Salsa. You may also know it as 4-Count Swing, 4-Count Hustle or 4-Count Jive. Skippy recently changed the name to Mélange which means a "mixture of things" in French

    It has all the same basic patterns but there is much more emphasis on timing, technique, teamwork, footwork, body leading, styling and musicality.
    Well blow me down with a feather.... .

    It certainly looks like MJ.

  12. #132
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Well blow me down with a feather.... .

    It certainly looks like MJ.
    It looks like MJ but it isn't. If you watch the end of the instruction the lady is stepping left on the guy's count of one and right on the count of two, etc. In MJ as it's danced in the UK the lady usually steps right on the one, left on the two.

    Although I do remember a tribe, lost in the New Forest, who did dance MJ to the same count as in the video. Dancing with the women was like bobbing for apples, nothing to get your teeth into

  13. #133
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    188
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    It looks like MJ but it isn't. If you watch the end of the instruction the lady is stepping left on the guy's count of one and right on the count of two, etc. In MJ as it's danced in the UK the lady usually steps right on the one, left on the two.

    Although I do remember a tribe, lost in the New Forest, who did dance MJ to the same count as in the video. Dancing with the women was like bobbing for apples, nothing to get your teeth into
    I don't really like the way they teach it in that clip...the way we teach it

    The man steps: left, right, left, right, left, right, left, right etc.
    The lady steps: right, left, right, left, right, left, right, left etc.

    You step on every beat...also and we count it 1234 5678 instead of 1234 1234

  14. #134
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    I don't really like the way they teach it in that clip...the way we teach it

    The man steps: left, right, left, right, left, right, left, right etc.
    The lady steps: right, left, right, left, right, left, right, left etc.

    You step on every beat...also and we count it 1234 5678 instead of 1234 1234
    Are you saying that clip is wrong and that the dance isn't actually the 'Mélange' at all? Because it would be heartening if you were not this Mélange and some other mirror image. In the clip the actual dancing to music seems to dancing to music other than the music that you hear - like it's a different sound track altogether.

    More to the point, are these Mélange teachers trained and qualified? I think it would be useful if Alan could, rather than telling us that Modern Jive was invented in the USA in 1970, tell us about the training and qualifications process for dance teachers in the USA. After all, it's what the thread is about. It would be very helpful to know more about the whole process.

    p.s. The "MJ was invented in the USA in 1970" would make a very interesting thread on it's own.
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 9th-March-2010 at 05:42 AM.

  15. #135
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Hastings
    Posts
    4,386
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In the clip the actual dancing to music seems to dancing to music other than the music that you hear - like it's a different sound track altogether.
    .
    That sounds like MJ to me !!!

    I thought it was obvious that the sound track was dubbed on after being recorded, then again, what di I know

  16. #136
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    188
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Are you saying that clip is wrong and that the dance isn't actually the 'Mélange' at all? Because it would be heartening if you were not this Mélange and some other mirror image. In the clip the actual dancing to music seems to dancing to music other than the music that you hear - like it's a different sound track altogether.

    More to the point, are these Mélange teachers trained and qualified? I think it would be useful if Alan could, rather than telling us that Modern Jive was invented in the USA in 1970, tell us about the training and qualifications process for dance teachers in the USA. After all, it's what the thread is about. It would be very helpful to know more about the whole process.

    p.s. The "MJ was invented in the USA in 1970" would make a very interesting thread on it's own.
    I didn't say it was invented in the 1970 in USA, I said GSDTA teachers taught this dance in America in the 1970s under a different name.

    They are dancing Mélange but the man is stepping right, left, right, left instead of stepping left, right, left right. The lady is stepping left right, left right instead of stepping right, left, right, left. Also we teach it slotted...they are dancing it rotational in the clip...like I said, I don't like they they teach it in that clip.

    GSDTA teachers are required to do a minimum of 40 hours of teacher training before they can take the preliminary exam. Once they pass this exam, they are required to teach for a certain period of time and take additional training before they can take the final exam (a written exam and they are required to submit a video of them teaching a class).

    I personally have done over 200 hours of GSDTA teacher training, I passed the preliminary exam (96%) and I intend to take the final exam the next time I go to the states.

    Once you pass the final exam, you are fully qualified to teach and you are required to resit the exam after 8 years. Most teachers even though they pass the final exam take additional training.

  17. #137
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Thank you for the information about the Golden State Dance Teachers Association. I'm sure there's much we can learn from them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    I didn't say it was invented in the 1970 in USA, I said GSDTA teachers taught this dance in America in the 1970s under a different name.
    I was talking toungue in cheek when I said MJ was invented in the USA in the 1970s. I'm sure it's been around as long as music has had a beat. But it's only been popularised in a few countries. When we come to thinking about who can learn from whom we can be sure that people from the USA have much to teach us about West Coast Swing. But you can be equally sure that USA have much they can learn from the UK, Australia & NZ about Modern Jive.

    When it comes to MJ I'd rather learn from a UK, Aussie or NZ specialist than a WCS dancer from the USA who has seen/learnt and annotated other dances. However, that doesn't mean there isn't anything we can learn from Skippy Blair about teaching method. Far from it.

  18. #138
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    188
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    When it comes to MJ I'd rather learn from a UK, Aussie or NZ specialist than a WCS dancer from the USA who has seen/learnt and annotated other dances. However, that doesn't mean there isn't anything we can learn from Skippy Blair about teaching method. Far from it.
    Even though both MJ & Mélange have the same patterns, we teach it very differently.

  19. #139
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Even though both MJ & Mélange have the same patterns, we teach it very differently.
    I would be very surprised if the teaching method was the same. Both dances may be the same and I put that down to the music being the same. But they grew up on different continents in very different cultures.

  20. #140
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wokingham
    Posts
    300
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Excuse the ramble

    Just following on from Amir's excellent post, I wonder if the punters feel the same way. Poll?

    I unashamedly believe Ceroc have a very good structure in place for things that he mentions teachers should know. This was again in evidence by the classes run at Camber. Its the little things that help here. Every teacher ensured they told everyone before freestyle at the end of the class they would be at the side of the stage to go through the routine and answer questions. This consistency is one of the strengths of the Ceroc teaching methodology. It is expected and for all I know enforced by Mike E that guest teachers do the same thing.

    In my own experience I tried Ceroc on a Monday night and Ginger Jive on a Tuesday night 18 months ago when I started MJ and Ceroc won hands down. As someone who trains people to handle pressurised situations and react in controlled precise patterns the slightly disorganised approach and randomness of the GJ approach did not appeal to me. Of course it may do to others, so please lets not start a word war on that, its just my opinion.

    As a newbie I had no idea of the difference or qualifications but wanted to try both to see if one was better than the other. In my area, I am lucky to be able to do that. Would a certificate make any difference. Probably not as a punter who is just starting. The social side of things is obviously important to a lot of people. What impressed me the most about Ceroc is the taxi system. I know others have them, but from the minute I came through the door, I was guided towards a Taxi who registered me, made me feel at ease, helped me through the first lesson (don't drink so having to do it without any dancing juice was hard) and then the review class was great and they had the energy. Compared to the GJ experience, it was 10x better.

    Now as a little more experienced I understand about the CTA, but its not a be all and end for me, although its nice to know that the teachers have gone through some formal training. Its reputation that would cause me to seek out Simon and Nicole for example or Amir or Nigel and Nina.

    I don't think certification would be the be all and end all of things for me. I think you get to a stage where you have to ask why you're going to an event. Is it for the lessons, a social chat or just to dance? If its a workshop, then I do want to know what qualifications, experience or events the person has won to make them teach and to be honest I would also visit their website and do a quick youtube search to see them dance. But of the 3 a certifcate would be the last item.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Dance teaching qualifications
    By SPROGGS in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 248
    Last Post: 2nd-October-2009, 07:32 PM
  2. Beginners ... are we teaching them correctly?
    By Gus in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: 10th-May-2005, 08:33 AM
  3. Teaching MJ v Teaching in general
    By Gus in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 8th-May-2005, 10:31 AM
  4. Teaching Advanced Modern Jive - HELP NEEDED
    By Gus in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 19th-October-2004, 11:17 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •