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Thread: Teaching Qualifications

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    It might be true that the course is well recognised.

    However it seems that Lee hasn't done the course. Here is what Sports Leaders UK have to say.
    I quite enjoy the little spats that go on this forum;it spices things up a bit especially when the boredom level rises but Andy I am afraid that I think you have gone just a little too far with that post.
    Was it really necessary to write to Sports Leaders UK to check up on Lee but to then post the reply on here.
    Come on!If you are going to fight,fight fair.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    I quite enjoy the little spats that go on this forum;it spices things up a bit especially when the boredom level rises but Andy I am afraid that I think you have gone just a little too far with that post.
    Was it really necessary to write to Sports Leaders UK to check up on Lee but to then post the reply on here.
    Come on!If you are going to fight,fight fair.
    I think that you would be correct for if it were any other member of the Forum. However, I continually receive insults from Mr Bartholomew. Take a peek outside if you are in any doubt. Why not have a go at Mr Bartholomew for picking on me? Or do you think his name calling is more fair than my exposure of him actually lying to the Forum?

    In this case Mr Batholomew has deceived to the Forum. And this is not the first time. The reason I checked is because we have been deceived in the past. The reason I suspected Mr Bartholomew on this occasion is that he seemed to start responding with along the lines of qualifications being a waste of time and then changed his tune to say that he actually had a qualification that was better than the UKA qualification - he even talked as if he knew what he was talking about on the subject of the UKA and the LeRoc Federation!

    Nice, normal members of the forum were debating the content of a course with Mr Bartholomew because they thought he knew something about the course having said that he'd attended and passed the course. How do you think those Forum members feel now they know Mr Bartholomew didn't attend the course? Or do you think, as it seems you do from your post, that those deceived members of the Forum should have been left in ignorance and continued to have asked their questions?

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    I quite enjoy the little spats that go on this forum;it spices things up a bit especially when the boredom level rises but Andy I am afraid that I think you have gone just a little too far with that post.
    Was it really necessary to write to Sports Leaders UK to check up on Lee but to then post the reply on here.
    Come on!If you are going to fight,fight fair.
    With any other people, I'd agree - but when it comes to Andy & Lee I'd say that all's fair in love & war... Let 'em get on with it - they're both capable of giving as good as they get.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Was it really necessary

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    With any other people, I'd agree - but when it comes to Andy & Lee I'd say that all's fair in love & war... Let 'em get on with it - they're both capable of giving as good as they get.
    As I've said in the past, I really don't want to debate anything with Mr Bartholomew. This issue gives a prime example of his dishonesty. And you can be sure that most of the things he says about me are untrue as well. Unfortunately he employs the trick of verisimilitude and peppers his untruths with a few known facts

    It now seems that Mr Bartholomew has gone underground and is sending PMs to members of the forum to propogate his lies in an environment where I get no chance of reply. Most people won't believe it or I wouldn't know about it - but mud sticks.

    How do I think Mr Bartholomew will respond? The last time it was a much, much bigger lie about an even bigger lie (if you were there you will remember and if you weren't I'm sorry I'm seeming so vague, but we really don't want to re-open that can or worms) and his reaction when caught out was the written exquivalent of a cheeky grin and a "you caught me, it was worth a try". And some people fell for it

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    I am quite happy to sit on the fence where you two are concerned.I have no idea of the history between you but you obviously dislike each other immensly.
    I just thought your actions were a tad childish.As for Lee being economical with the truth well I suppose he is only kidding himself and eventually he will trip himself up.As for the subject matter-completely over my head.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    I just thought your actions were a tad childish.
    This is where we differ. I have learnt, with maturity, to trust less and less. This means I check claims made by many people to see if they are true. In the case of Mr Bartholomew I probably wouldn't have checked his qualifications if he'd not changed his tune about the need for them - this is clear evidence to me that I'm still a little bit too trusting, especially in the case of an individual who has been known to deceive the forum in the past.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    I'm guessing from Lee's response that it's this one.

    It looks like it's a qualification that's nationally recognised too.

    (With apologies to readers outside England - the education system in other UK countries is different, especially in Scotland, and I'm not sure how to tell whether or not this particular qualification is included.)
    Right Here I go then.

    I apologise to anyone I step on, but after a bit of searching and cross referencing:

    The class referred to above has been carried out in Scotland so I went in search of what level it was for all the UK bodies

    I traced it back to http://www.bst.org.uk/our-awardsqual...rship/faq.aspx

    Which says about half way down:

    Q. I have heard that this is equivalent to a GCSE, is this right?
    A. No! This qualification sits at Level 1 on the National Qualifications Framework so it has the same attainment level as D-G grades at GCSE (as they also sit at Level 1). However, this is where the comparison ends. GCSE's are academic qualifications whilst the DL is a vocationally related qualification and GCSE's take approximately 120 hours to deliver whilst the DL has 30 tutored hours. These factors mean that it is not appropriate to directly compare one qualification with the other.

    Now if you look at this you should be able to compare all the European Educational Standards together

    I haven't managed to get the world wide comparisons, but maybe the New Zealand or Australian educational bodies have documentation to match in to the European set??


    will that do for a start?

    Basically it looks like one of the SQA units

    WT
    Last edited by whitetiger1518; 5th-March-2010 at 04:03 PM.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger1518 View Post
    Right Here I go then.

    I apologise to anyone I step on, but after a bit of searching and cross referencing:

    - snip -

    will that do for a start?

    WT
    Thank you for bringing this thread back on-topic

    Recent events have added another dimension to my thinking.

    • What do you as an examining organisation if someone claims you have examined them and you have not?
    • Have they committed an offence in law?
    • If they have committed an offence, it is a criminal offence that would interest the police?
    • What happens if someone attends a class believing that the teacher is qualified and it turns out the teacher has lied?
    • What happens if that student is injured at the class of the lying teacher?

    Of course the first thing we need to do is to build up the qualification so that it's worth lying about in the first place.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Apologies as I've picked up this thread late in it's 'conversation'

    I was under the impression that there were 4 levels of membership to the LeRoc Federation;

    1. Student
    2. Associate - as per Andy
    3. Full
    4. Examiner

    Is this not evidence enough that the LeRoc certification is a good example of the teaching methods and abilities of those that secure a qualification of which is backed by a recognised UK examining system ?? BUT I do agree this doesn't necessarily mean they are good teachers
    Last edited by Modern Jiv'r; 5th-March-2010 at 04:48 PM.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Jiv'r View Post
    Apologies as I've picked up this thread late in it's 'conversation'

    I was under the impression that there were 4 levels of membership to the LeRoc Federation;

    1. Student
    2. Associate - as per Andy
    3. Full
    4. Examiner

    Is this not evidence enough that the LeRoc certification is a good example of the teaching methods and abilities of those that secure a qualification of which is backed by a recognised UK examining system ??
    This is absolutely right. The Associate exam is all that is required for teaching dance to students. The other levels are about teaching teachers and holding certain Committee positions of trust. I'm currently going through the process of applying for Full Membership and it is a lot of work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Jiv'r View Post
    BUT I do agree this doesn't necessarily mean they are good teachers
    I think it's a bit like the driving test. You are certified on the day as being competent. But it's all about what you do on the day. For example, I did fabulously in my maths 'A' level - nowadays I can only just spell calculus and have a vague recollection of saying something like "udvdx + vdudx" but I've no idea what it means

    Part of it is about practice, if you're doing it frequently it will stay front-of-mind. However, familiarity might also mean you get into bad habits.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger1518 View Post
    Q. I have heard that this is equivalent to a GCSE, is this right?
    A. No! This qualification sits at Level 1 on the National Qualifications Framework so it has the same attainment level as D-G grades at GCSE (as they also sit at Level 1). However, this is where the comparison ends. GCSE's are academic qualifications whilst the DL is a vocationally related qualification and GCSE's take approximately 120 hours to deliver whilst the DL has 30 tutored hours. These factors mean that it is not appropriate to directly compare one qualification with the other.
    I'd characterise this as saying it's the same level as a GCSE grade D-G (which is an indication of how hard/difficult it is to pass individual parts of the qualification) but in terms of the amount of work required, it's a fair bit smaller than a GCSE.
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    The NVQ in dance is run by the UKA. It does exist.
    All NVQs (in England at least) are accredited by Ofqual, because they're National Vocational Qualifications. The same accreditation applies to GCSEs, A Levels and indeed the Dance Leadership qual.

    If there was an NVQ in Dance, it would be on Ofqual's National Database of Accredited Qualifications - which is the website linked to in this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    There is more than 1 dance qualification out there. Infact there is a list of SOME of them http://www.accreditedqualifications....tions.seo.aspx
    ...and I certainly can't find any "NVQs in dance" on there. (As I said earlier, there may be dance elements within NVQs with different titles related to dance but not using "dance" in the title.)

    Also I note that UKA are not an Awarding Organisation accredited by Ofqual - so I'm not sure what is being claimed here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    It's the UKA that are accredited as an examining body, etc.
    I think UKA are internationally quite well known (as Alan Doyle says) but they aren't within the mainstream qualification accreditation process which Ofqual run for qualifications in England (not including Higher Education which has its own regulation process).

    What's the importance of this? Well it means that UKA may not have an independent regulator or other body checking standards and how qualifications are awarded.

    Of course they may be very good at it, but that's like saying that an unqualified MJ teacher may be a very good teacher.
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Had a few beers and happy for mods to delete or edit...

    But here it is...

    A lot of great teachers in MJ have little or no formal paper qualifications.

    Those who seek paper qualifications are often those in the bottom % who want some cred, but have no cred. (there are exceptions)

    Anyone can start up dance classes and if they market it well, can get good numbers. Paper or no paper, it is about marketing and then retaining customers.

    As some enlightened person said before, there is more to an evening than just the teacher, there is the whole experience of the evening.

    The top teachers that I respect, I do not ask and I do not know, if they have little bits of paper. What I do know, is they put on a good class/workshop and I want to attend.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Well, this is kinda moving the topic away from its current direction but still 'teacher qualification related'.

    I should 'fess up at the beginning that I am a Ceroc teacher of 10+ years. A few years ago I had a break from dancing to have a baby and I decided to go to an 'independent' freestyle when I started dancing again because I wanted to be anonymous in my size 16 trousers! The teacher, who I had never met before approached me for a dance and asked me where I had 'sprung from'. I gave a vague response about having had a break from dancing and he asked if I would like to teach for him sometime. I politely refused.

    The following week I attended one of his class nights and the 'teacher' was joining in with the lesson, whilst a man who was clearly one of the customers was on-stage teaching. In freestyle I grabbed the teacher and asked why he wasn't teaching that night. He replied that he likes to use the punters because it helps people realise how easy it is to dance!!

    Their nights were well attended and the customers were clearly happy to participate in a lesson taught by their peers. I was appalled that nobody seemed to think there was anything wrong with it.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    I think UKA are internationally quite well known (as Alan Doyle says) but they aren't within the mainstream qualification accreditation process which Ofqual run for qualifications in England (not including Higher Education which has its own regulation process).

    What's the importance of this? Well it means that UKA may not have an independent regulator or other body checking standards and how qualifications are awarded.

    Of course they may be very good at it, but that's like saying that an unqualified MJ teacher may be a very good teacher.
    The UKA website says they are "OCR and NVQ accredited". But it doesn't explain what that means.

    There is a whole world of dance teaching qualifications and, it seems, they have mostly passed us by in Modern Jive teaching. I see qualification as a way of raising standards. One of the things that has prompted me to look for raised standards in Modern Jive teaching has been related to a dancer I know who recently attended ballroom classes.

    This particular dancer has been attending modern jive nights for about a decade and has never attended any of my classes, just freestyles. To my mind he doesn't actually do Modern Jive at all. He knows a few lifts and flash moves but doesn't really lead his partners properly or understand what differentiates MJ from other dances. He gets by at the dances because the rules of MJ aren't particularly strict. Experienced female dancers carry on doing the correct footwork as best they can while this guy does his own thing. No harm done and everybody is fairly happy.

    Now this guy has started ballroom. He danced his version of Modern Jive with a lady jiver he knows while some music was playing at the ballroom class. The ballroom teacher showed him total contempt and said "I NEVER want to see you doing that stupid dance here again"! When this guy told me the story I felt ashamed I should have done something about this guy's dancing so the ballroom teacher at least witnessed Modern Jive with the proper timing.

    N.B. Some time ago this guy approached me for advice about entering an MJ competition. I was completely honest with him and said that he'd need to learn the basic foundation of MJ so that he could be judged as a MJ dancer. He said he was happy with his dancing and got knocked out in the first round - he told me he thought the competition must be rigged!

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by jojiver View Post
    The following week I attended one of his class nights and the 'teacher' was joining in with the lesson, whilst a man who was clearly one of the customers was on-stage teaching. In freestyle I grabbed the teacher and asked why he wasn't teaching that night. He replied that he likes to use the punters because it helps people realise how easy it is to dance!!

    Their nights were well attended and the customers were clearly happy to participate in a lesson taught by their peers. I was appalled that nobody seemed to think there was anything wrong with it.
    This illustrates my point really well. Members of the public have no way of judging good teaching. They assume that whatever they get is "normal".

    A qualification would set the minimum standard.

    p.s. In reply to Martin. I'm afraid he's not representative of a member of the public. He's well placed to judge what is good and what isn't. A dance virgin has no such luxury and a qualification would be a good way to select a teacher.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The UKA website says they are "OCR and NVQ accredited". But it doesn't explain what that means.
    I'd take that to mean that they are accredited by OCR (Oxford, Cambridge & RSA Exams who are an Ofqual Awarding Organisation) to offer their exams. Presumably they are also accredited by another Awarding Organisation (such as Edexcel, for example) for the NVQ exams?

    I have no idea, though, where the LeRoc teaching exam that Andy took falls into the scheme of things, and whether it's accredited by any of these organisations.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This illustrates my point really well. Members of the public have no way of judging good teaching. They assume that whatever they get is "normal".
    I don't think that's really true. It's not like dancers don't discuss different teachers and venues amongst themselves. Dancers who have progressed the furthest are well placed to know who is and is not a good teacher and the knowledge and critique filters through to everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    A qualification would set the minimum standard.
    A qualification can only add value if the minimum standard is, and remains sufficient.

    An example: A few years back I helped a learner driver out by accompanying them so that they could practice in their own car. I was appalled at some of the advice that they had been given by their driving instructor, and when I heard some of their stories about the times it had all-gone-wrong and saw the mistakes they were making that had gone uncorrected I began to understand why they had failed 3 driving tests. I recommended that they sack their instructor and find someone else more capable. They followed my advice, got a better instructor and passed their next driving test. Therefore, in the case of my friend, that bit-of-paper held by their instructor was worse than useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    A dance virgin has no such luxury and a qualification would be a good way to select a teacher.
    The risk that 'unqualified' teachers present to 'dance virgins' is minimal. Find me a teacher that does complete beginners classes using aerials and drops and I'll find you a driving school that teaches first-time drivers using Ferraris.

    For the time being, at least, a bit-of-paper for teaching MJ can only ever be a marketing tool to use on 'dance virgins'. That is to say, it may help a commercial operator make more money, but is otherwise of no real use to anyone.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Just a small aside:
    If going on a teachers course gives you qualifications in teaching, then doing courses to improve your dancing (ie workshops and classes) - shouldn't they then give out qualifications to the students?

    Shouldn't every dancer "work towards" a goal, a 'recognised' achievement, a competition win? Isn't that what the achievements are for? to prove that you are better than your peers and that you can actually dance? ...{*}

    No? So why apply this thinking to the teachers when it does not apply to the students they teach?

    (Yes? If so, I bet you actively seek out the people that you can learn from, no matter what qualifications they hold.)

    * My wife has a biscuit-tin full of UKA{?} medals and trophies. My daughter a pin-board full of them. She quit because it wasn't fun any more. Personally I don't see any good thing that could come from forcing MJ to follow the tap/ballet/country/ballroom... dance teaching/learning structure that just about every generic dance studio follows.

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