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Thread: Teaching Qualifications

  1. #21
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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    The type of people that care about these things would already meet or would strive to meet your standards, the ones who don't care would continue to do a bad job and earn money from it anyway.
    This is pretty much why I started the thread. I'm interested in hearing the views of current dancers.

    So far I've heard why people don't think qualifications are important. Most of that was arguing from the particular to the general "I know this great teacher and they aren't qualified - therefore teachers don't need qualifications". This is a poor argument, but it does clearly articulate the sentiment held by the person posing the argument. They don't value qualifications. Although we have heard about one teacher who values qualifications so much that they lie about it!

    We've also heard that there are poor teachers. It is those teachers who would be clearly identified if teaching qualifications were made more important. You might say "so long as there are good teachers it doesn't matter if there's some rotten apples". However, those poor teachers will put people off learning Modern Jive. If the attend a bad Modern Jive class they probably won't shop around for a different and better class, they are more likely to try Salsa or some other physical activity.

    Any suggestions?
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 3rd-March-2010 at 01:22 PM.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This is a trap into which I will not fall.
    Pity

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Going around the country I'm sure everybody has examples of a class that's run by an unqualified cowboy! Let's hear about them rather than the exceptions.
    Yes they pop up from time time in my area , but they disappear with in a few weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And then there's membership of a professional body to consider. As a member of a professional body here is a small list of the things I need to have in place;

    Public Performance Licence
    long list
    Risk Assessment Plan

    Do you think that the cowboy dance teacher with dollar signs in his eyes has any of the above?
    No they don't , which is why they fail or get kicked out of their venue, before they get a chance to do any damage

    We already have a lots of laws, rules and regualtion to prevent us from killing ourselves . We live in an overpopulated over regulated country, we need fewer, not more, rules and regulations

    PS we some cowboys teaching Country and Western, don't know if they are qualified but I am told they are quite good
    Last edited by philsmove; 3rd-March-2010 at 01:42 PM.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    If every MJ teacher had either the Leroc or CTA, would the teaching standard be any better than it is now?

    I very much doubt it. I have seen some terible Leroc qualified teachers in my time (some great ones too).
    Hmmmm have to say that my experience of 'pure' Leroc instructors has been pretty poor. To hide behind the "we know what foot to step back on" hasn't prevented a fair few of the ones I've come across being clueless about teaching good dnace principles, T&C or musicality [IMHO]

    NB ... I'n NOT referring to instructors like Roger C who are awesome instructors but also happen to have taken the LeRoc qualification later

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Hmmmm have to say that my experience of 'pure' Leroc instructors has been pretty poor. To hide behind the "we know what foot to step back on" hasn't prevented a fair few of the ones I've come across being clueless about teaching good dnace principles, T&C or musicality [IMHO]
    Again this is saying "I've seen some bad LeRoc instructors so they are mostly bad". Of course this a weak argument.

    However, the observation does have some merit as an observation. I believe that this observation identifies a need to maintain quality standards in qualified Modern Jive teachers. At the moment I don't have any idea how that can be achieved. Any suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    NB ... I'n NOT referring to instructors like Roger C who are awesome instructors but also happen to have taken the LeRoc qualification later
    Surprisingly, Roger has only just done the exam. He must have thought it was worth doing

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Any suggestions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Any suggestions?
    Well, seeing as compulsory registration/accreditation isn't going to happen in our lifetimes, if ever:
    If there were a widespread enough "independent" publication (printed or on-line), it could sponsor a reviewer (secret or not?) to visit and review classes. That publication could seek to increase it's readership by sending those reviews to local general interest publications, whilst also resulting in either increasing interest in local classes, or protecting the locals from dodgy classes.
    However, there is no single publication that has a widespread enough audience in MJ as yet.
    Of course, there would be those who would seek to discredit it however it was done, but then some already try to discredit Ceroc/Leroc methods already.

    Personally, I just don't think that the MJ world is mature enough to support any of the ideas I've heard so far (including my own).

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Personally, I just don't think that the MJ world is mature enough to support any of the ideas I've heard so far (including my own).
    I agree.

    What I'm looking for is movement in the right direction. At the moment I'm observing a proliferation of unqualified amateurs muddying the waters. For example, this week I received a serious complaint about a new teacher who has set up a class over 200 miles from me who was claiming I'd taught him to dance and teach. It was true that he's been to a few of my lessons - but I'd not taught him anything because he always thought he knew better and did almost every move differently from the way I was teaching. I actually heard from his ex-demonstrator who quoted him as saying he "doesn't bother with certain parts of moves, but uses his own instead..".

    I've emailed him asking him to stop using my name. But there's nothing anybody can do to stop him teaching. He's set up the only MJ class in a small Northern seaside town. It's him or nothing

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    . I believe that this observation identifies a need to maintain quality standards in qualified "Modern Jive" teachers. At the moment I don't have any idea how that can be achieved. Any suggestions?
    As any one can use the name Leroc, indeed any one could claim to be a "Leroc Qualified teacher" and the General public have not heard of the term "Modern Jive" its going to be difficult

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    As any one can use the name Leroc, indeed any one could claim to be a "Leroc Qualified teacher" and the General public have not heard of the term "Modern Jive" its going to be difficult
    The certificate, which I have propped in front of me has been granted by the LeRoc French Jive branch of the UKA. I think we need to claim UKA qualifications rather than LeRoc qualifications. It's the UKA that are accredited as an examining body, etc.

    Speaking personally, I don't like the name LeRoc. The main reason I don't like it is the business reason that it's unprotectable. The silly reason I don't like it is that it sounds foreign

    However, I'm prepared to live with the name until someone wiser than me* comes up with something better.

    *Gus?

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    I don't think may people will have heard of UKA ( I hadn't)
    You could look at setting up something like PADI
    but I think this is exactly what Ceroc have done

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    For example, this week I received a serious complaint about a new teacher who has set up a class over 200 miles from me who was claiming I'd taught him to dance and teach.
    yep... A sure sign of a cowboy!!!

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    I don't think may people will have heard of UKA ( I hadn't)
    You could look at setting up something like PADI
    but I think this is exactly what Ceroc have done


    I think PADI is a great example. Thank you.

    I expecially like the fact that one of the co-founders is called John Cronin. I wonder if he's related to James Cronin, co-founder of Ceroc?

    Nowadays nobody would consider going to a dive school that wasn't PADI. Of course the dangers of diving are greater than the dangers of dancing so the consequences of going to a cowboy are less severe.

    One area where I think we could learn is from the areas of ballet, Ballroom and Latin American. I think that most of those teachers have professional qualifications. However, I could be wrong as I'm making an assumption - it's so obvious they should be qualified. It should also be obvious for MJ.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    So far I've heard why people don't think qualifications are important. Most of that was arguing from the particular to the general "I know this great teacher and they aren't qualified - therefore teachers don't need qualifications". This is a poor argument, but it does clearly articulate the sentiment held by the person posing the argument. They don't value qualifications.


    Once again you see only what you want to see, and present an inaccurate summary with your opinion of it stated as absolute fact. *Yawn*

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post


    Once again you see only what you want to see, and present an inaccurate summary with your opinion of it stated as absolute fact. *Yawn*
    My whole focus is on the UK. What happens in NZ is not relevant. Therefore I have not taken into account the fact that no teachers in NZ are qualified and that one person from NZ thinks that is a good thing.

    The only opinion I have given is that the argument from the particular to the general is a weak argument. Perhaps you can tell us why it is not?

    Also, you have only told us that Andy McGregor is wrong in a destructive and argumentative way - I simply debating. Perhaps you'd like to be constructive and write the summary as you think I should have seen it. Let's call it a counter-argument.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    yep... A sure sign of a cowboy!!!


    That and the boots

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    So far I've heard why people don't think qualifications are important. Most of that was arguing from the particular to the general "I know this great teacher and they aren't qualified - therefore teachers don't need qualifications".
    I don't really value qualifications, no. I value experience. I value common sense. I value ability. I value versatility and adaptability. I value the ability to inspire. I value warmth and understanding. I value clarity. I value professionalism.

    I'm not convinced that qualifications will help train people in the qualities that I value in a dance teacher.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I don't really value qualifications, no. I value experience. I value common sense. I value ability. I value versatility and adaptability. I value the ability to inspire. I value warmth and understanding. I value clarity. I value professionalism.

    I'm not convinced that qualifications will help train people in the qualities that I value in a dance teacher.
    Thank you for your personal view. I have similar values. I also value the ability to entertain.

    As I've said, I really do think qualifications are there to set a minimum standard for teaching. And I think that membership of a professional body sets a standard for many other aspects as well.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    My whole focus is on the UK. What happens in NZ is not relevant. Therefore I have not taken into account the fact that no teachers in NZ are qualified and that one person from NZ thinks that is a good thing.
    To be fair, the Ceroc Arena is strongest in the UK, Australia and NZ, so we can all learn from each other.

    NZ Monkey and myself, and a few others on the forum, have experienced how Ceroc/MJ works in all three countries.

    Although your focus is on qualifications in the UK, it may be of value to see how other countries who are strong in the MJ scene deal with the same issue.

    Although the UK has a larger number of students and teachers, it would be fair to say there are teachers and students of varying ability in all countries.

    I personally did not go for Ceroc or Leroc qualifications, as I did not aspire to teach in the way they taught. I wanted to be better. I might not have achieved that, but that was my aim.

    The role models I have used along the way, have been those people I look up to, who are safe, teach clearly, break down the moves well, put this across in an understandable way and inject fun into the classes.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    We've been here before haven't we?

    In all seriousness, why not start a project with all interested parties at the table to discuss it?

    I would envisage that the outcome should be that an independent organisation should be formed to govern teaching and qualifications of MJ Teachers within the UK.
    Whilst being independent, the organisation should by governed by a board which includes representatives of interested organisations to ensure that the new body doesn't start doing things detrimental to MJ in the UK as a whole.
    The criteria can be agreed by all and each organisation can subscribe according to the number of teachers it has or some other agreed model.
    It would then be the responsibility of the new organisation to vet new applications, carry out occasional checking of existing organisations, and promote itself and MJ as a whole throughout the UK.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    To be fair, the Ceroc Arena is strongest in the UK, Australia and NZ, so we can all learn from each other.
    You are right. We can learn from each other. NZ Monkey says he/she doesn't agree with teaching qualifications being of any use at all. I think that NZ really has nothing to contribute to a debate about qualifications apart from criticising me for debating the subject. Comments so far from NZM do not seem to be aimed at promoting debate but aimed at ending debate. This desire to make a point has coloured NZM's posting. I'm interested in reading people's views and suggestions for a way forward with qualifications - not hearing that qualifications are a waste time.

    Martin, can you tell us what happens in to qualify people to teach Modern Jive in Australia and NZ? I'd love to hear from NZ Monkey as well if he/she has anything constructive to say.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You are right. We can learn from each other. NZ Monkey says he/she doesn't agree with teaching qualifications being of any use at all. I think that NZ really has nothing to contribute to a debate about qualifications apart from criticising me for debating the subject. Comments so far from NZM do not seem to be aimed at promoting debate but aimed at ending debate. This desire to make a point has coloured NZM's posting. I'm interested in reading people's views and suggestions for a way forward with qualifications - not hearing that qualifications are a waste time.

    Martin, can you tell us what happens in to qualify people to teach Modern Jive in Australia and NZ? I'd love to hear from NZ Monkey as well if he/she has anything constructive to say.
    It could be that no qualificatons are the way forward, Andy. I know, in your view, unlikely to be the way forward: but a valid view all the same.

    For every Amir, there is a monkey... for every Simon and Nicole, there are Ceroc teachers incapable of inspiration, technical teaching... Some Leroc teachers are good, some not so.... I have yet to experience a Ginger Jive teacher that has impressed me but that doesn't mean they don't exist...

    A qualification doesn't make any one of them better. A lack of qualification doesn't make them worse.

    Their teaching abilities make them better or worse.

    "Qualifications are unhelpful" is a rational viewpoint that could be argued and should be part of the debate. (imho).

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