Teaching Qualifications

[Andy McGregor]

Masses of first timers last night. Woohoo!

Did you impress them?

[philsmove]

The end point of that journey for many people is that they are satisfied with their dancing and simply want to dance. They don't want lessons any more and the teaching becomes irrelevant to them.

I also think there is a group, who having attained a reasonable standard can not progress due to a lack of advanced teachers. Progress is only possible by traveling to weekends and workshops

I think I used to fitted into this category. I used to have to work weekends so my MJ dancing did not progress

Now thanks to Ceroc, we now have local advanced classes and workshops and I would like to think my dancing is improving

I am not sure why Leroc does not seem run or promote many advance classes, may be a lack of perceived demand or may be a lack of advanced teachers

if its the latter, then there is definitely a need for more teacher training

[ant]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
I think those people are right to say that it's the training is important. The qualification is just a piece of paper. But I'd like to know that the teacher has had some training and that the training was successful. Passing a test that the training was successful and showing a piece of paper is the traditional way of providing the proof that you've had the training and that it was successful.

I think when you first start MJ you rely on the organisation you go to. They ensure health and Safety, quality of teaching and music etc. not the teacher per se.

Saying that the training is sufficient is wrong. Consider medicine, would you be happy to be treated by a doctor who'd been to medical school but failed his final exam? Of course not! They failed because he/she failed to take in the training. All the piece of paper does is prove the training was successful

Are are you saying that teachers who people respect that have not passed an exam are failures?

Of course dance is not medicine and the consequences of a dance lesson from someone who has had no training or failed their tests are less dire than treatment from a quack. But the principle is the same.

I think you are mixing apples and pears. As I stated above when I started MJ I relied on the organisations I attended, for no better reason than I did not know better. After I began to master the basics and wanted to improve beyond that I started to seek other teachers.
These teachers were the ones in my opinion that have added to the basic skill sets that were on offer at regular classes.
I chose these people using a variety of criteria
- what specialist skills they self promoted
- what workshops they have held previously
- how they taught at weekenders I visited
- personal recommendation of people that had been taught by them
- the music they played when DJing
- their personal performance
The one thing had had no interest in at all was there qualifications.

[Andy McGregor]

Are are you saying that teachers who people respect that have not passed an exam are failures?

No!

Of course people who fail an exam are failures - but I wasn't even saying that. My example was regarding training. I was agreeing that training is important but illustrating that qualifications are evidence that training has been successful.

[Gadget]

No!

Of course people who fail an exam are failures - but I wasn't even saying that. My example was regarding training. I was agreeing that training is important but illustrating that qualifications are evidence that training has been successful.

I disagree: I think that qualifications are evidence that people have passed exams, not that the training has been successful.

[Gerry]

No!

Of course people who fail an exam are failures - but I wasn't even saying that. My example was regarding training. I was agreeing that training is important but illustrating that qualifications are evidence that training has been successful.

Agreed but lots of people find exams really difficult to pass but become very good at their area of expertise, likewise there are people who can pass exams with no difficulty but are crap at their job.

At the end of the day I think referals from somebody you respect will tell you whether somebody is a good teacher or not

[seamus]

The Leroc Certificate may well say what Andy says (I have never seen one) but it doesn't mean you have passed an actual UKA exam, just that you have passed an exam recognised by them, which is what I was saying.

Actually, I don't think you have it quite right. The LeRoc syllabus and examination was created in partnership between The LeRoc Federation and the UKA. The original LeRoc examiners were examined by the UKA.

When you are accredited by LeRoc, you are a member or the UKA and you absolutely DO pay a fee to the UKA, at least thats what my direct debit says :-)

Also, if you want an accredited Modern Jive teachers qualification that is recognised in the dance industry, then only place you can currently get that is through the LeRoc Federation.

CEROC has their own teaching program and in-house accreditation that is only recognised by CEROC.

Two analogies:

First, CEROC teacher accreditation is the like studying for an MBA equivalent through the McDonalds University. The McDonalds University training is excellent and their university is global, BUT no matter how good it is, it is only recognised by McDonalds. To get an officially recognised MBA, you have to get it through an accredited business school.

Second, to highlight the debate between the need of having teachers with or without qualifications. Would you build your house with a Chartered Surveyor or one that isn't? With a chartered surveyor, you know that the person has done some form of recognised qualification and there is a body you can go to with complaints. If a serious complaint is upheld, the person could be struck off.

With LeRoc, you do have a body you can go to if you have a complaint with your accredited teacher. The federation can strike off a teacher (the LeRoc federation has a code of practice that every teacher has to sign-up to)

As highlighted elsewhere, the threat of sanctions is only as powerful as the perceived value of the qualification, which at this time is low from the dancers point of view and moderate from the teachers. What this means is that the Federation has to 'up' the perceived value in it's qualification to the teacher so that a sanction would mean something.

The Federation is addressing these issues.

[Rant start] I would also like to point out that elsewhere there were comments of A-List teachers that don't need a qualification - I disagree.

The only perceived 'A'-list teachers that I can think of that have a LeRoc qualification are Simon Borland and Roger Chin. Other A-listers can be good in teaching workshops, but have very little proven track record of successfully running their own regular dance venues or teaching for others (I can think of at least one successful MJ dance night that was driven into the ground very quickly by an A-list teacher).

Using 'success in the business of Modern Jive' as a benchmark for quality (as suggested elsewhere), then a fair number of the A-listers will certainly be graded 'C' or worse.[Rant over]

I should say that there are good and bad LeRoc accredited teachers, there are good and bad CEROC teachers and there are good and bad unqualified teachers.

A strong, recognised accreditation program will allow a teacher to gauge their own quality (CEROC and LeRoc have different levels of accreditation) and for dancers to get, at the very least, an idea that their teacher will provide a structured class, that will teach them correctly, in a venue that is setup and managed correctly and that they are insured if during the class they hurt themselves (on this point, a regular dancer will know, without having to ask, that a LeRoc teacher will at least have insurance through the UKA and CEROC will provide a general insurance for their entire venue).

To sum up. At this time, wether you like it or not, the only place *anyone* can get a recognised Modern Jive accreditation right now is though LeRoc. As such, LeRoc needs to up it's game to improve the value of that accreditation to drive the standards of teaching up and to create perceived credibility in the provided accreditation.

[Lory]

Also, if you want an accredited Modern Jive teachers qualification that is recognised in the dance industry, then only place you can currently get that is through the LeRoc Federation.

Who's going to ask you for this qualification?

Second, to highlight the debate between the need of having teachers with or without qualifications. Would you build your house with a Chartered Surveyor or one that isn't? With a chartered surveyor, you know that the person has done some form of recognised qualification and there is a body you can go to with complaints. If a serious complaint is upheld, the person could be struck off.

I don't think this is a good analogy, we're not talking about an exact science here!
A lot of it is to do with personal taste, personalities and inspiration etc.

Also once you've embarked on a project to build a house, your on a journey that involves a lot of legalities and money and its not that easy to swap a surveyor, as it would be to change a dance teacher!
Anyway, I think i'd go with the person with the highest personal recommendations and proven track record! And the person I felt I could work with best!

With LeRoc, you do have a body you can go to if you have a complaint with your accredited teacher.

And what are they going to do if I complain I'm not winning competitions after a year of lessons?

As highlighted elsewhere, the threat of sanctions is only as powerful as the perceived value of the qualification, which at this time is low from the dancers point of view and moderate from the teachers. What this means is that the Federation has to 'up' the perceived value in it's qualification to the teacher so that a sanction would mean something.

What this means is, qualifications mean very little, to the very people your trying to impress!

[Rant start] I would also like to point out that elsewhere there were comments of A-List teachers that don't need a qualification - I disagree.

The only perceived 'A'-list teachers that I can think of that have a LeRoc qualification are Simon Borland and Roger Chin. Other A-listers can be good in teaching workshops, but have very little proven track record of successfully running their own regular dance venues

What does running your own dance venue have to do with the ability to be able to teach someone to dance?

Using 'success in the business of Modern Jive' as a benchmark for quality (as suggested elsewhere), then a fair number of the A-listers will certainly be graded 'C' or worse.

EXACTLY!

I should say that there are good and bad LeRoc accredited teachers, there are good and bad CEROC teachers and there are good and bad unqualified teachers.

So, what does the accreditation prove then?

A strong, recognised accreditation program will allow a teacher to gauge their own quality

Surely its easy to gauge... Are they in demand?

p.s. Hi Seamus.. long time no see hun

[bigdjiver]

Did you impress them?

Partner turned up that loves show-off moves and insists on "dancing" near seats. If her hanging upside down from my waist impresses ....

I made sure I danced with all the beginners at the nearest table afterwards.

[seamus]

Who's going to ask you for this qualification?

1) I don't think this is a good analogy, we're not talking about an exact science here!
A lot of it is to do with personal taste, personalities and inspiration etc.

2)Also once you've embarked on a project to build a house, your on a journey that involves a lot of legalities and money and its not that easy to swap a surveyor, as it would be to change a dance teacher!
Anyway, I think i'd go with the person with the highest personal recommendations and proven track record! And the person I felt I could work with best!

3)And what are they going to do if I complain I'm not winning competitions after a year of lessons?

4)What this means is, qualifications mean very little, to the very people your trying to impress!

5)What does running your own dance venue have to do with the ability to be able to teach someone to dance?

6)EXACTLY!

7)So, what does the accreditation prove then?

8) Surely its easy to gauge... Are they in demand?

9)p.s. Hi Seamus.. long time no see hun

Okay, here we go.

1. The analogy is simply this. When choosing to pay someone for something you want, a professional qualification is an aid to removing the wheat from chaff. I do agree that a personal recommendation from a friend will always carry more weight however.

2. If you have not danced before, have watched Strictly on TV and decided to learn Modern Jive and have no friends who dance MJ, how do you get personal recommendations? How do you find a track record to base a decision on where to go for your first night? Basically, if all you had to go on was if the teacher had a qualification or not, who would you choose?

3. No one is ever going to complain that their teacher hasn't got them winning competitions. People will complain if they are abused by other dancers and the teacher does not handle the situation, people will complain if they hurt themselves and find the teacher is not insured and they have no comeback. Some people will complain if they believe they have ben ripped off - most will just go elsewhere.

4. Qualifications mean nothing to you, because you will not gain from them. If you are new and want to learn to dance, you want to know that your teacher will have a basic standard of teaching and managing a venue (there is more to the teacher qualification than being able to stand on stage and teach).


5. You ask "What does running your own dance venue have to do with the ability to be able to teach someone to dance?" The answer is nothing. A previous post suggested that a teacher does not need to be qualified as if they run a successful venue, they by definition must be good. Some teachers can only turn up , teach a class and thats it. There is nothing wrong with that, but do not assume that the A-listers who are like that are actually any good. Most are, some are not.

6. As for DOH, I'm just pointing out that it is stupid to grade the A listers on if they can run their own venue, but also pointing out that there are some that are paid a premium my venue owners with the expectation that the classes will be good, only to find their night down the toilet in short order. The mistake of the venue owner was employing based on perceived reputation and not on credible facts. One of those facts would have been a qualification, other would have been going to the persons classes before hand or testing them out or even asking around.

7. Again, get your boiler fixed from your friends friend, what happens in 6 months when it goes wrong? An accreditation gives you, as a consumer confidence and comeback. An accrediting body has the ability to remove the bad teachers, to re-test them and to maintain standards. A teacher with no personality may be boring as anything, but technically they may be spot on, however it would be easy to accuse them of being a bad teacher.

8. I would like to think that I am a good teacher. I'm not really in demand for workshops, weekenders or guest teaching, so how do I know how I stack up against others? My own venues have a growing cliental, but that doesn't necessarily mean I am any good, perhaps they all like the free tea and coffee?

9. Not been around as am now near Aylesbury with a 12 week old bambino :-)

It all boils down to this. Would you prefer your teacher to have a qualification of not?

If not, then tell me why CEROC has them and will not let you teach for them (except under special circumstances) unless you are qualified? Obviously they know a thing or two, they are the market leader. Why would you NOT want your local teacher to be held up to the same standards that CEROC provides?

[philsmove]

If not, then tell me why CEROC has them ?

If I was employing someone to teach others to dance, or do virtually anything, the first thing I would do is ask, if they have any qualifications, then I would check out references them finally check them out my self

but having employed them, I would not expect my customers to be in particularly interested in their qualifications

If I have an unqualified person built a house for me, I stand to lose £££££ but this not the case if I go to dance lesson, I stand to lose ~£7 .If I am unhappy about the teacher, I am not going to complain to anyone, I will vote with my feet

I think, the general public are pretty good at distinguished between a good and a bad teacher, which is why in my area, the best teachers have biggest classes

I am going to guess having a Leroc qualification is not going to get you a job with Ceroc and Visa Versa

[seamus]

I am going to guess having a Leroc qualification is not going to get you a job with Ceroc and Visa Versa

Let me respond just to this bit.

Any CEROC teacher can be examined for a LeRoc accreditation, the accreditation is open to all.

A LeRoc accredited teacher would have to either :

a) Be proposed by a CEROC franchise or someone within the CEROC organisation and then pass an initial CEROC suitability examination and then pass two course (one for beginners and then intermediate) to get a job teaching with CEROC

or

B) To be put onto the exemption list that allows a select number of non-CEROC teachers to teach at CEROC events and classes (Amir Giles is a good example of this)

The LeRoc federation does not employ anyone, its job is be an official examination and accreditation body for Modern Jive, nothing more.

[Lory]

Firstly thank you for your in-depth answer and for sharing your valuable inside knowledge, as someone who's obviously been accredited

2. If you have not danced before, have watched Strictly on TV and decided to learn Modern Jive and have no friends who dance MJ, how do you get personal recommendations? How do you find a track record to base a decision on where to go for your first night? Basically, if all you had to go on was if the teacher had a qualification or not, who would you choose?

So, once you've gained your qualification, do you go onto some sort of database, where members of the public can find you?

3. No one is ever going to complain that their teacher hasn't got them winning competitions. People will complain if they are abused by other dancers and the teacher does not handle the situation, people will complain if they hurt themselves and find the teacher is not insured and they have no comeback. Some people will complain if they believe they have ben ripped off - most will just go elsewhere.

So in reality, the qualification offers no guarantee that the teaching is any good. But it does guarantee that the teacher is insured, which is good.
What kind of things are they insured for?

Some teachers can only turn up , teach a class and thats it. There is nothing wrong with that, but do not assume that the A-listers who are like that are actually any good. Most are, some are not.

Who appoints (labels) these teachers as A-listers?

6. As for DOH, I'm just pointing out that it is stupid to grade the A listers on if they can run their own venue, but also pointing out that there are some that are paid a premium my venue owners with the expectation that the classes will be good, only to find their night down the toilet in short order. The mistake of the venue owner was employing based on perceived reputation and not on credible facts. One of those facts would have been a qualification, other would have been going to the persons classes before hand or testing them out or even asking around.

So what your saying is, a venue owner will have more chance of a successful evening, if he chooses an unknown 'qualified', 'accredited' teacher , above a non accredited 'A-lister' ?

7. Again, get your boiler fixed from your friends friend, what happens in 6 months when it goes wrong?

Again, I don't think you can compare these scenarios

An accrediting body has the ability to remove the bad teachers, to re-test them and to maintain standards. A teacher with no personality may be boring as anything, but technically they may be spot on, however it would be easy to accuse them of being a bad teacher.

IMO boring people, make bad teachers!

Would the accrediting body remove someone for being boring? Or would it fail them in the first place?

8. I would like to think that I am a good teacher.

I've never seen you teach but knowing you, I'd imagine your very good!

It all boils down to this. Would you prefer your teacher to have a qualification of not?

Not bothered!

If not, then tell me why CEROC has them and will not let you teach for them (except under special circumstances) unless you are qualified?

'I believe' Ceroc are selling a brand and they have their own training programme of how to sell that brand and people are tested to see if they pass their own quality control!

We've mentioned Macdonalds.
Now imagine if Raymond Blanc to come and cooked at your local Macdonalds, could he cook a BigMac to the exact recipe, even though he's not been through the Macdonalds training and not passed their exam?
Maybe, maybe not?
But then again, would we want him to cook it exactly like every other Big Mac or would we want him to do it his own way?
If he did it his own way, it 'may' be better but then, it wouldn't be a Big Mac!

Macdonalds is huge and very successful because it does what it does very well!

But there will always be people who want to go with something a little different and my worry is, the exam will have to make some standardisation in how it wants people to teach and some of the best teachers, will not tick the boxes!

[DavidY]

The McDonalds University training is excellent and their university is global, BUT no matter how good it is, it is only recognised by McDonalds.

You may be surprised that this is incorrect.

McDonalds have taken the trouble to get themselves recognised as an official Awarding Organisation in the UK education system. They have a qualification which is accredited by Ofqual, who regulate qualifications in parts of the UK. (They don't include Scotland, but it looks like this particular qualification is offered in Scotland too.)

The details of this qualification are published nationally, for anyone to see.

This means that if, for example, another employer wanted to employ someone who'd previously worked at McDonalds and done this qualification, the new employer could see exactly what that qualification consisted of, including all the component units.

[seamus]

1. So, once you've gained your qualification, do you go onto some sort of database, where members of the public can find you?

2. So in reality, the qualification offers no guarantee that the teaching is any good. But it does guarantee that the teacher is insured, which is good.
What kind of things are they insured for?

3. Who appoints (labels) these teachers as A-listers?

4. So what your saying is, a venue owner will have more chance of a successful evening, if he chooses an unknown 'qualified', 'accredited' teacher , above a non accredited 'A-lister' ?

5. IMO boring people, make bad teachers!

6. I've never seen you teach but knowing you, I'd imagine your very good!

7. 'I believe' Ceroc are selling a brand and they have their own training programme of how to sell that brand and people are tested to see if they pass their own quality control!

8. But there will always be people who want to go with something a little different and my worry is, the exam will have to make some standardisation in how it wants people to teach and some of the best teachers, will not tick the boxes!

I'll quickly rattle through these.

1. Yes there is a list of teachers on the LeRoc Federation website. The Federation is going through a big change at the moment and a fit for purpose website will emerge in the medium term that is a proper database of federation teachers and affiliated organisations. Even it it's current state, teachers listed do get contacted for teaching work.

2. The qualification guarantees that the teacher can teach the beginner moves at a quality specified by the UKA. They have public liability insurance, so that whist they are teaching, if anyone is hurt, that person is covered by the teachers insurance. There is more, but thats the biggie. It is worth noting that any venue worth it's salt will not allow anyone to teach unless they have their own insurance as they will not cover the liability of anyone hurt during a class. Their insurance kicks in during the freestyle situation.

3. I have no idea who appoints the 'A-listers' and it drives me mad even using the term. There are those who rate highly some teacher and call them A-listers, whilst I believe they are being over-rated. The flip0side is also true of course :-) In reality, CEROC has created its own A-List by allowing a select few non-CEROC teachers to teach for them at events and classes without a CEROC qualification.

4. You would be surprised, but the answer to your question is yes (IMHO). The margin of success or failure in a venue can be the difference in paying an un-known but qualified teacher and paying over the odds for an 'name'. A big draw 'name' is only good for a short amount of time as they are really only good to get a big buzz the first night or two. Dancers are fickle and will move onto the next new thing very quickly. Quality, consistency and keeping costs down are essential at the birth of a new venue.

5. Boring people make for a boring class, though they may actually be teaching the moves correctly.

6. Search YouTube and see :-)

7. Exactly, why does CEROC care about quality if it is not important? If quality is important then have teachers accredited is important.

8. The LeRoc exam is designed to qualify you to a standard that is inline with the UKA. The Federation stresses that once accredited, you can teach a move in a manner of your choosing with the golden rule of consistency.

[Bubble]

The analogy is simply this. When choosing to pay someone for something you want, a professional qualification is an aid to removing the wheat from chaff.

And my analogy is this; here's a list of stuff for which I definately want someone to be 'qualified' with a traceable paper trail, and appropriate experience.
1. The people from the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate who check nuclear power stations.
2. The pilot flying the aircraft that took me on holiday and the workers who maintained the aircraft.
3. The fitter who installed my gas boiler.
4. The doctor who did my cosmetic improvement.
5. The solicitor who advised me.

For me, at least, dance teachers (MJ or otherwise) aren't on that list, and probably never will be.

Besides, if the teaching of MJ is in desperate need of some regulation, where are the horror stories that support that line of thought? I've yet to read any of these in the trashmags:
1. 'One night of MJ ruined my life'
2. 'Unqualified Leroc teacher consigned me to a wheelchair'
3. 'Spinning at Ceroc made my breasts sag'
4. 'Dirty dancing lessons left me emotionally scarred'
5. 'Flirt at MJ wrecked my marriage'

Also, if you want an accredited Modern Jive teachers qualification that is recognised in the dance industry, then only place you can currently get that is through the LeRoc Federation.

Many of the dancers posting in this thread don't seem to mind if their teacher is 'qualified' or not; that's not what I'd call 'recognition of a qualification within the dance industry'.

In all the posts on this thread so far, I don't think I've seen a truly compelling argument for compulsory 'qualification' of MJ teachers. To my mind, the only real chance for the UK Leroc Federation to develop any leverage would be to convince almost every UK venue that allowing 'unqualified' teachers to use their venue is irresponsible. However, if the dancers aren't bothered and the venue organisers don't regard MJ as a risky activity, where's the driving force for that?

Trying to force the 'qualification' issue when there don't appear to be any robust arguments that support it could be construed as an attempt to destroy the MJ free market, while filling the coffers of those that run the UK Leroc Federation or hold one of its teaching qualifications.

It all boils down to this. Would you prefer your teacher to have a qualification of not?

Put me down as 'don't give a monkey'

[alinp]

Quick Q for those who have a qualification (of whichever form).

Is there any CPD requirement?

[Franck]

Quick Q for those who have a qualification (of whichever form).

Is there any CPD requirement?

I hold a Ceroc CTA qualification, and things have changed significantly over the last few years. I believe the Ceroc Training was always the most intensive and difficult with an initial audition, multiple courses lasting several days running over a period of a year and yearly updates for all teachers.
In the last few years, Ceroc have introduced spot checks on teachers and a CPD programme (compulsory) which covers a wide range of teaching topics, from Connection to Class management, Warm-ups, Routine Creation and balance, Adding drama & style to moves and routines, and much more.

As far as I'm aware, the minimum requirements for the Leroc Certificate is a week-end workshop, followed by a simple exam. I realise that the better Leroc teachers trained very hard and looked for great teachers to learn from, but a qualification is only as good as its miminum requirements and the follow-up in terms of training and checks. My understanding is that anyone can use the term 'Leroc' whether qualified by the Federation or not, which would make it difficult for any Beginner to know whether their 'Leroc' teacher has any qualification or indeed training.

On the question of whether qualifications are needed or not, I have changed my views a couple of times over the last 20 years and would say that mostly they are not, as many people have pointed out, MJ teaching and dancing is not high risk, and qualification are not critical.
However, Selection, Training, and continual assessment with compulsory training is what does and will give Ceroc the edge.

[alinp]

In the last few years, Ceroc have introduced spot checks on teachers and a CPD programme (compulsory) which covers a wide range of teaching topics, from Connection to Class management, Warm-ups, Routine Creation and balance, Adding drama & style to moves and routines, and much more.

As far as I'm aware, the minimum requirements for the Leroc Certificate is a week-end workshop, followed by a simple exam. I realise that the better Leroc teachers trained very hard and looked for great teachers to learn from, but a qualification is only as good as its miminum requirements and the follow-up in terms of training and checks. My understanding is that anyone can use the term 'Leroc' whether qualified by the Federation or not, which would make it difficult for any Beginner to know whether their 'Leroc' teacher has any qualification or indeed training.

Thanks Franck

U have nicely summed up the point of my Q. This whole debate of whether someone is qualified or not becomes irrelevant if that qualification is not backed up by some form of CPD, which ensures that the qualification is up to date and hence what is being taught (in this case) is relevant to the dance as it currently exists. MJ is a very young dance (in comparison) hence is evolving all the time. A qualification gained (say) 10 years ago does not ensure that the holder has an up to date knowledge of the subject they're teaching.

[Lory]

3. 'Spinning at Ceroc made my breasts sag'

Sadly, this happened to me but my teacher wasn't insured!