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Thread: Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

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    Defining and categorising what makes a dance style (Engelbert )

    Moderators note... I've split this from the teaching qualifications thread Lory xx

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    and the name Modern Jive was reduced back by common usage to exclude Lindy.
    I apologise for remaining off topic, and feel free to call me pedantic, but Lindy & MJ are quite distinct and separate, and always have been entirely different dances.
    Last edited by Lory; 16th-March-2010 at 11:04 AM.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I apologise for remaining off topic, and feel free to call me pedantic, but Lindy & MJ are quite distinct and separate, and always have been entirely different dances.
    But Lindy has infiltrated MJ in comps in the past, in 199* a couple dancing pure Lindy got placed highly in the Classics (Advanced category) [Le Jive]. More up to date (ish), in 2004 in the Jivemasters [Ceroc Metro], a couple dancing pure Lindy, got placed second.

    Opps it is now 2010.... It is WCS infiltrating MJ now...

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    But Lindy has infiltrated MJ in comps in the past, in 199* a couple dancing pure Lindy got placed highly in the Classics (Advanced category) [Le Jive]. More up to date (ish), in 2004 in the Jivemasters [Ceroc Metro], a couple dancing pure Lindy, got placed second.
    In .... 1999, I believe, a pure Lindy couple came second in the (le)Jive Open showcase. David and Lily won, Nigel & Nina came third. I remember it (fairly) well. And in 2008, Paul & Christi with a Lindy routine. I don't know who the 2004 couple would have been.

    I would not, however, interpret the fact that some competitions permitted this being in any way contradictory to my (pedantic) assertion....

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Opps it is now 2010.... It is WCS infiltrating MJ now...
    Well - MJ is a rather wayward child of many parents, including Lindy Hop,which has clearly has a pretty adventurous past... resulting in many inadvertent progeny. (Tart) It's only natural that MJ should be seeking the company and approval of one of its more pure-blooded siblings....

    Now - to stop myself getting too much further off topic, I need to sneak the words 'teaching' and 'qualifications' into this post, without them looking totally out of place. There. Phew. No-one noticed...

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    In .... 1999, I believe, a pure Lindy couple came second in the (le)Jive Open showcase. David and Lily won, Nigel & Nina came third. I remember it (fairly) well. ...... I don't know who the 2004 couple would have been.
    1999 Martin Ellis and partner
    2004 Simon Selmon and Taina Kortelainen



    opps.. almost forgot...'teaching' and 'qualifications'
    Last edited by Martin; 15th-March-2010 at 03:57 PM. Reason: to put in teaching and qualifications

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    In my view ballroom jive, wcs, lindy, trad jive, bugg et al are all part of the general family of Jive dances. I believe the Le Jive championships were based on that view, and the mix of styles and people that were brought together at those events were a big factor in how the MJ scene has progressed. We seem to be left with a definition on the lines of MJ is not the others.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    In my view ballroom jive, wcs, lindy, trad jive, bugg et al are all part of the general family of Jive dances. I believe the Le Jive championships were based on that view, and the mix of styles and people that were brought together at those events were a big factor in how the MJ scene has progressed. We seem to be left with a definition on the lines of MJ is not the others.
    Le Jive promoted Lindy Hop as well. The owners of Le Jive also danced Lindy. So not a big supprise that they "allowed" a Pure Lindy dance couple to come 2nd in thier MJ event.

    On to 2004, I was supprised that Ceroc Metro (a franchise of Ceroc) was happy to have pure Lindy in thier Jivemasters. Personally I thought... "no way, they are not dancing Ceroc or MJ, this is pure Lindy".

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    So not a big supprise that they "allowed" a Pure Lindy dance couple to come 2nd in their MJ event.
    For "allowed" read "fixed it for".

    I was there, I remember the fuss. And I remember a judge telling me he was instructed who to choose as the winner

    This revelation was one of the reasons I wrote a new Judging Method and one of the reasons I'm very strict with judges regarding influencing the decisions of other judges.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    I think we're going off on a tangent again .. if I split the thread, any suggestions as what we should title the 'offshoot'?
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
    "If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    For "allowed" read "fixed it for".

    I was there, I remember the fuss. And I remember a judge telling me he was instructed who to choose as the winner
    Interesting... I'd always assumed it was who not to choose. I do remember leaving that event vowing never to go back.... though it was the advanced category results that had me the most annoyed. Out of morbid curiosity, why would a judge choose to go along with said instructions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory
    I think we're going off on a tangent again .. if I split the thread, any suggestions as what we should title the 'offshoot'?
    'Engelbert'?

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    'Engelbert'?

    I give up
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    'Engelbert'?
    Of course, Lory would have to wear the sideburns

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post

    Opps it is now 2010.... It is WCS infiltrating MJ now..
    So is it a "swing" dance now, rather than jive????

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by alinp View Post
    So is it a "swing" dance now, rather than jive????
    WCS has an influence on MJ, but I wouldn't say MJ is a swing dance

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    WCS has an influence on MJ, but I wouldn't say MJ is a swing dance
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle
    GSDTA Teachers taught this form of dance under a different name since the 1970s. In the 1970s, GSDTA taught this form of dance as 2-Hand Salsa. You may also know it as 4-Count Swing, 4-Count Hustle or 4-Count Jive. Skippy recently changed the name to Mélange which means a "mixture of things" in French
    Emphasis mine.

    So, is MJ a swing dance or not?

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Emphasis mine.

    So, is MJ a swing dance or not?
    Melange (4-Count Swing) & MJ may share the same basic patterns but they are separate dances and taught/danced very differently.

    Melange is considered a swing dance but I would not consider MJ to be a swing dance.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    So, is MJ a swing dance or not?
    Back to that old chestnut... anyway - personally, I don't even consider WCS to be a swing dance . Certainly it isn't in the sense that Lindy is. So no - I would say not.


    ('teaching qualifications')

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Emphasis mine.
    Goldmine!

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Back to that old chestnut... anyway - personally, I don't even consider WCS to be a swing dance . Certainly it isn't in the sense that Lindy is. So no - I would say not.
    WCS is derived from Lindy Hop and there is a forumla for converting between WCS and Lindy Hop.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    WCS is derived from Lindy Hop and there is a forumla for converting between WCS and Lindy Hop.
    For me, it comes down to the music, which shapes dances like Lindy & WCS right down to the core. WCS has simply, IMO, evolved away from swing. Lindy hasn't. Anyway - I'm sure we've done this one to death on other threads.

    I'm curious about this formula though. Could you expand on that?

    (Silver Mine! Ahem.)

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle View Post
    Melange (4-Count Swing) & MJ may share the same basic patterns but they are separate dances and taught/danced very differently.
    So, when you were telling us that
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle
    GSDTA Teachers taught this form of dance under a different name since the 1970s.
    what exactly were you trying to say? It seems like you're making a pretty significant U-turn on the matter at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle
    WCS is derived from Lindy Hop and there is a forumla for converting between WCS and Lindy Hop.
    I'd like to see an elaboration on that too if you don't mind.

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