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Thread: Teaching Qualifications

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    Teaching Qualifications

    There has been a lot of debate within the LeRoc Federation about qualifications.

    My own opinion is that the LeRoc Federation don't make enough of a fuss about the value of learning from a qualified teacher.

    I have no hidden agenda on this subject. My agenda is out in the open. I think Modern Jive teachers should be trained and examined on how well they perform. Ceroc do this internally. LeRoc Federation members are examined by trained examiners.

    I've been trying to think of an area outside Modern Jive where there is such a lack of qualifications. Even hairdressers are mostly qualified. Outside Ceroc Modern Jive teachers are mostly not qualified. Many of them are not even trained!

    But members of the public still attend classes run by these untrained, unqualified cowboys.

    Here are your questions;

    Why do the public attend classes run by untrained unexamined teachers?

    Why do venue owners let dance teachers with no qualifications use their premises?

    Is there anything we can do to promote the need for classes to be taught by teachers who have been trained and examined?

    Are there any laws or government guidelines on physical education from unqualified teachers?

    Can you think of any area that has moved from being operated by amateurs to being operated by qualified professionals?

    What should I be doing about is as well as starting this thread?

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Here are your questions;

    Why do the public attend classes run by untrained unexamined teachers?
    I'm guessing people don't know the teacher is untrained/unqualified or they don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Why do venue owners let dance teachers with no qualifications use their premises?
    I'm guessing the venue either doesn't know they are untrained/unqualified or they don't care...I was never asked if I was trained/qualified or not only that I had insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post

    Is there anything we can do to promote the need for classes to be taught by teachers who have been trained and examined?
    Promote the teachers who are trained/examined and encourage the teachers who are not to do training/exams.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I've been trying to think of an area outside Modern Jive where there is such a lack of qualifications. Even hairdressers are mostly qualified. Outside Ceroc Modern Jive teachers are mostly not qualified. Many of them are not even trained!
    Interesting.
    I'm an (arguably) untrained, and definitely unexamined dance teacher. I've done a lot of relevant dance training, yes, but none with any accredited body. As teachers go, I'm told I'm quite a good one.

    So addressing the next few questions purely from my perspective as an 'untrained, unqualified cowboy'...
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    But members of the public still attend classes run by these untrained, unqualified cowboys.

    Here are your questions;

    Why do the public attend classes run by untrained unexamined teachers?
    Probably because my partner and myself are good at it, the public enjoy the classes, and they learn from them. Oh - and if they do want to find 'qualified' Lindy or Blues teachers around here, or anywhere, tough. Lindy and Blues teaching qualifications are a little hard to come by...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Why do venue owners let dance teachers with no qualifications use their premises?
    Because they don't care? They worry about liability, insurance, making money, having people take care of their venues....

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Is there anything we can do to promote the need for classes to be taught by teachers who have been trained and examined?
    Raise the quality of the existing training to the point where unqualified people aren't good enough to compete?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Can you think of any area that has moved from being operated by amateurs to being operated by qualified professionals?
    I can't think of a single area currently operated by qualified professionals that has not done so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    What should I be doing about is as well as starting this thread?
    Something useful?

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Something useful?
    I was taking a break for my campaign to get Modern Jive danced in the opening ceremony of the London Olympics in 2012.

    Useful enough?

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    It’s not like learning fly, no matter how badly you have been taught, you are not going kill yourself, The great and wonderful thing about dance is, you don’t need any certificates, licences, exemptions or permits ether to do it, or to teach it. OK if you are a DJ you may need a Produb, PPL, PRS etc

    My previous interest was hot air ballooning, when I started, many years ago, the licensing requirements were very very simple, today the CAA (Campaign Against Aviation) and EASA have made things exceedingly complicated, you need lots of, certificates, licences, ratings , exemptions, permits, permissions etc and lots and lots of money to pay for them

    So you have a certificate to teach MJ but what if you want to incorporate , a move from WCS, Lindy, Blues, Cha Cha, Mambo, or Tango, would you need a extra certificate to teach those moves ? and have you done a risk assessment for each move you are about to teach ?

    In my part of the world, we have Ceroc and leroc qualified teachers and quite a few who, to the best of my knowledge, who have no qualifications
    I don't think there is any evidence one group is better than the other, if fact, I think, many of the competition winners from my area, have been taught by teachers with out qualifications

    Please, lets not even think about compulsory qualifications. There is an army of civil servants out there who are about to made redundant, they would love the idea of setting up the Dance and Enjoyment Executive, charging us loads of money, for little bits a paper we just don't need

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    It’s not like learning fly, no matter how badly you have been taught, you are not going kill yourself,
    You are unlikely to kill yourself, but there is a measurable risk of injury. Working to the guidelines of a professional body like the LeRoc Federation or a large company like Ceroc is aimed at quantifying and reducing the risk of injury.

    A great deal of thought has gone into risk reduction at some dance classes. And the more people you have involved in your risk assessment the greater the chance that you will get it right or closer to right than a guy who simply thinks he's "seen it done, how hard can it be?" I've watched my barber cut my hair - maybe I can do it for someone else, how hard can it be?

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I was taking a break for my campaign to get Modern Jive danced in the opening ceremony of the London Olympics in 2012.

    Useful enough?
    Anything I, or other forum members can do to help?

    It would be nice to have an International meet of dancers outside the Olympics too. It was a shame Vancouver lost their venue for the duration of the wintwr olympics. It is something organisers might be wary of. There will be pressures on venues for the duration.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    My opinion is that the only people who bang on about qualifications are those who have gone to the effort to get some sort of qualification.

    That does not make you better or worse at teaching.

    I have spent many years training adult educators to educate and dance teachers to teach dance, I have no bits of paper to say I should do this, hence maybe I enter the Cowboy status.

    In fact, some of the worst teacher I know have pieces of paper telling us how good someone thinks they are.

    A piece of paper means someone thinks you have hit a minimum mark, the proof is, do the masses think you are good.


    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I was taking a break for my campaign to get Modern Jive danced in the opening ceremony of the London Olympics in 2012.
    You might like to mention in your campaign, the 2000 Olympics in Sydney Australia, had a large contingent of MJ dancers, in both the opening and closing ceremony. (Yes, I was there )

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Can you think of any area that has moved from being operated by amateurs to being operated by qualified professionals?
    Football?
    Does the local 5-a-side league need a qualified referee, coach, physio, manager, etc? The normal people who are just out to have a good time with their mates and enjoy themselves - Should they have a "qualified" coach?

    Golf?
    Do the businessmen who sling a bag in their boot and hit a ball round a course need a qualified professional to coach them?

    Tennis? Bowling? Squash? Darts? Snooker? Running? ... in fact just about anything that people do for enjoyment. {although I'm dubious if running counts as enjoyment}

    Most MJ teachers I know of are not full time dance instructors - they have jobs; a life outside of this, their hobby. They don't pull down mega bucks; they are not teaching super talented, dedicated, athletic people how to excel in their field; they do this because they have a passion for it.

    Do you care if you are taught by someone who has demonstrated that they know more than you? Or if you are taught by someone who has bits of paper telling them that they should know more than you?
    It's like employing someone - do you employ them solely on the qualifications, or on the work they have demonstrated they can do?
    It can't hurt to have a qualification, but Mr Miyagi didn't have any

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    There is more than 1 dance qualification out there. Infact there is a list of SOME of them http://www.accreditedqualifications....tions.seo.aspx


    Who would govern who can and can't teach?

    More to the point, I know of Leroc qualified teachers who are simply dangerous with what they teach (gripping, no safty advice and in 1 case, I have seen a drop being taught in a beginners class!!!!).

    Though, I hate to admit it, but I do see where Andy is coming from, but it would never work.

    I think the way to make the Leroc qualification more desirable for dancers, is to make it harder to obtain, and have to be topped up every year or two.

    At the moment, I know of a lot of dancers who associate the "LEROC" teachers as bouncy, lacking style and lacking ability, which is ashame as I know of many leroc teachers that are not like that.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    There is more than 1 dance qualification out there. Infact there is a list of SOME of them http://www.accreditedqualifications....tions.seo.aspx
    That looks like a list of qualifications that may be applicable to the "job role" of a dance teacher.

    I wouldn't say they were all dance qualifications; some of them don't have much (or possibly anything) in the way of dance content - for instance this one.
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    That looks like a list of qualifications that may be applicable to the "job role" of a dance teacher.

    I wouldn't say they were all dance qualifications; some of them don't have much (or possibly anything) in the way of dance content - for instance this one.

    Yeah, I wasn't bored enough to read them all, was just an example of the fact that there are quite a few different qualifications out there.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    In many fields of endeavour, it is the need to satisfy insurers that forces you to show you have been trained. Conversely, if insurers don't ask for teachers to be qualified, then it follows that they perceive the risk of harm to be low.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You are unlikely to kill yourself, but there is a measurable risk of injury. Working to the guidelines of a professional body like the LeRoc Federation or a large company like Ceroc is aimed at quantifying and reducing the risk of injury.

    A great deal of thought has gone into risk reduction at some dance classes. And the more people you have involved in your risk assessment the greater the chance that you will get it right or closer to right than a guy who simply thinks he's "seen it done, how hard can it be?" I've watched my barber cut my hair - maybe I can do it for someone else, how hard can it be?
    Unfortunately this is the down side, if the moves are not taught safely...any move can be dangerous...I've seen people being dropped on the floor in classes...I know people who have had some serious injurys from moves not being taught safely. e.g. a friend on mine got a serious back injury and was out for a year because of it...same friend about 6 months ago got a serious ankle injury...has not been able to walk/work/etc. for the last 6 months.

    By biggest gripe with untrained/unqualified teachers is that a lot of them don't teach things safely...
    Last edited by Alan Doyle; 3rd-March-2010 at 12:49 AM.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    But members of the public still attend classes run by these untrained, unqualified cowboys.
    In my experience the best dance teachers are people who know how to dance well, and how to break that down into digestible information.

    I’ve never had, nor likely will have, a dance teaching qualification. I am pretty certain, however, that the kind of qualifications Andy is talking about centre more along the lines of class management and teaching points for certain moves. These are certainly important points and I do not wish to give the impression that I don’t consider training in these things valuable.

    I doubt that these relatively short courses teach much in the way of actual dance skills though, and without having those skills themselves I think it virtually impossible for the teacher to pass those onto their students. You need to know how to dance before you can teach it, and it is my strong belief that many graduates of such programs have been told they’re able to do the latter without having the former.

    Of the best MJ teachers I’ve had, none have been certified by Ceroc or LEROC, or have at least deviated so far their training from such bodies that they no longer represent it . They have been excellent dancers themselves though, with a solid understanding of the more fundamental things than just the moves. That in itself doesn’t prove anything one way or the other, but I think it’s a useful data point – at least from my perspective.

    In the case where the qualification is a serious, full-time course of study over an extended period (years rather than weeks), covering aspects of connection, movement and biomechanics as well as teaching, then I think it’s a different kettle of fish. That’s taking it well outside the intention of the original post though.

    While I think formal training for teachers is an advantage, as long as it is correct and relevant, my opinion is that other factors are far more important as to whether I consider someone to be good teachers or not.

    Out of interest, would you consider the likes Amir or Simon and Nicole to be cowboys?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Doyle
    Unfortunately this is the down side, if the moves are not taught safely...any move can be dangerous...I've seen people being dropped on the floor in classes...I know people who have had some serious injurys from moves not being taught safely. e.g. a friend on mine got a serious back injury and was out for a year because of it...same friend about 6 months ago got a serious ankle injury...has not been able to walk/work/etc. for the last 6 months.

    By biggest gripe with untrained/unqualified teachers is that a lot of them don't teach things safely...
    My immediate reaction is to think that if someone is getting that many injuries capable of laying them out for that long then they have problems of their own and shouldn't immediately blame the dance classes. I can understand a back being thrown, but am having trouble figuring out how an ankle injury could be caused by poor teaching. One usually isn't required to tell someone not to twist their ankle over after all.

    We can all think of teaching practises that are unsafe, but I wonder how you are taught to teach safely as opposed to not teaching unsafely.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    My immediate reaction is to think that if someone is getting that many injuries capable of laying them out for that long then they have problems of their own and shouldn't immediately blame the dance classes. I can understand a back being thrown, but am having trouble figuring out how an ankle injury could be caused by poor teaching. One usually isn't required to tell someone not to twist their ankle over after all.

    We can all think of teaching practises that are unsafe, but I wonder how you are taught to teach safely as opposed to not teaching unsafely.
    It didn't happen in my class (I wasn't there to see how it happened). She was doing a jump/aerial with a teacher, landed wrongly and caused nerve damage in her ankle...

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Out of interest, would you consider the likes Amir or Simon and Nicole to be cowboys?
    This is a trap into which I will not fall.

    The problem so far has been that people do not see the need to be examined. And that includes A-list teachers who would easily pass the exam.

    I am not really thinking of the A-list. In the grand scheme of things there's probably about a dozen A-list teachers. What I'm thinking of is the people who go to classes for 6 months and then see a chance to make some cash. So they find a hall, do some advertising and start teaching. I can think of a few people who have done this very thing and I'm sure there are others. Far more "others" than the number of people on the A-list. And that's just the 4 counties I know something about! Going around the country I'm sure everybody has examples of a class that's run by an unqualified cowboy! Let's hear about them rather than the exceptions.

    And let's stop quoting the exceptions to the need for qualifications and start thinking about minimum standards. And let's stop thinking like someone who has almost perfect knowledge of the Modern Jive classes in their area. Let's start thinking about the person who'd like to learn to dance who responds to and advertisement in the newspaper. How do they sort the wheat from the chaff?

    Qualifications set a minimum standard. You know when the man or woman in the street attends a class run by a qualified teacher they will get a certain standard of teaching. When they attend a class run by a teacher with no qualifications they have no idea what they will get - it could be Amir* or it could be a back-snapping cowboy!

    And then there's membership of a professional body to consider. As a member of a professional body here is a small list of the things I need to have in place;

    Public Performance Licence
    Performing Rights Society Licence
    Public Liability Insurance
    UKA Teaching Certificate
    LeRoc Modern Jive Federation Code of Practice
    UKA Code of Practice
    Child Protection Policy
    Voluntary CRB Vetting
    Anti-Bullying Policy
    Risk Assessment Plan

    Do you think that the cowboy dance teacher with dollar signs in his eyes has any of the above?

    *I'm reminded of one night in Hipsters where a new lady came for a beginners lesson. She was taught by Viktor Andeke and Nina Daines and had her consolidation lesson with me and Nigel Anderson. Years later at a dance she said to me "at the time I had no idea I was getting such a good start"!

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Out of interest, would you consider the likes Amir or Simon and Nicole to be cowboys?
    Simon and Nicole both done their Ceroc CTA. I think Amir might have done as well but not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Let's hear about them rather than the exceptions.
    That would be naming and shaming wouldn't it?

    Lets look at it this way....

    If every MJ teacher had either the Leroc or CTA, would the teaching standard be any better than it is now?

    I very much doubt it. I have seen some terible Leroc qualified teachers in my time (some great ones too).

    The benifits of CTA are clear, but what does the Leroc exam offer? Insurance perks (though can be gotten cheaper) and a logo that beginners don't take any notice of anyway. (talking of which, I know teachers that use the Leroc Qualified logo even though they are not!!!!)

    Until the Leroc fed (which I belive is undergoing some changes?) offers more than they currently do, The leroc exam isn't worth the paper it's written on (IMO).

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Public Performance Licence
    Performing Rights Society Licence
    Public Liability Insurance
    UKA Teaching Certificate
    LeRoc Modern Jive Federation Code of Practice
    UKA Code of Practice
    Child Protection Policy
    Voluntary CRB Vetting
    Anti-Bullying Policy
    Risk Assessment Plan

    Do you think that the cowboy dance teacher with dollar signs in his eyes has any of the above?
    Probably not, but then none of them definitely make him a better teacher either.

    They almost certainly make him a better operator, and that's important too, but the subject of the thread is "Teaching Qualifications".

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Far more "others" than the number of people on the A-list. And that's just the 4 counties I know something about! Going around the country I'm sure everybody has examples of a class that's run by an unqualified cowboy! Let's hear about them rather than the exceptions.
    You're making the assumption that unqualified teachers who aren't cowboys are the exemption here. As Straycat has pointed out earlier that's not a particularly fair assumption, particularly once you get out of the MJ scene.

    For a case in point, the vast majority of NZ teachers are (in my experience, which is probably greater than anyone else reading this thread) just as competent as their UK counterparts despite there being NO formal teaching qualifications for them in this country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    And let's stop quoting the exceptions to the need for qualifications and start thinking about minimum standards. And let's stop thinking like someone who has almost perfect knowledge of the Modern Jive classes in their area. Let's start thinking about the person who'd like to learn to dance who responds to and advertisement in the newspaper. How do they sort the wheat from the chaff?
    By checking it out themselves I would imagine.

    Certainly, a certificate from an obscure organization I've never heard of does nothing to impress me, and I doubt they impress Joe Public much either. There are enough of those certificates floating around martial arts circles and my experience is that the more certificates an instructor has the more they're there compensating for something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Qualifications set a minimum standard. You know when the man or woman in the street attends a class run by a qualified teacher they will get a certain standard of teaching. When they attend a class run by a teacher with no qualifications they have no idea what they will get - it could be Amir* or it could be a back-snapping cowboy!
    I do take your point, and I'm not deliberately trying to be obtuse here. I think you're taking a rather idealistic viewpoint though.

    You're assuming that everybody who passes through a qualification really does measure up to a reasonable standard. It's quite possible to pass a test on one week and then fail it again two weeks later when the material isn't as fresh from boot camp. It's also possible to get lazy and disregard the teaching once you're away from the examiner. Both are human nature.

    And before the point about professional qualifications is made - we are not, and never will be, talking about something in the same league. If we were I'd be agreeing with you a lot more, as I hope I made clear in my previous post.
    Last edited by NZ Monkey; 3rd-March-2010 at 12:46 PM.

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    Re: Teaching Qualifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And let's stop quoting the exceptions to the need for qualifications and start thinking about minimum standards.
    And then there's membership of a professional body to consider. As a member of a professional body here is a small list of the things I need to have in place;

    Public Performance Licence
    Performing Rights Society Licence
    Public Liability Insurance
    UKA Teaching Certificate
    LeRoc Modern Jive Federation Code of Practice
    UKA Code of Practice
    Child Protection Policy
    Voluntary CRB Vetting
    Anti-Bullying Policy
    Risk Assessment Plan

    Do you think that the cowboy dance teacher with dollar signs in his eyes has any of the above?
    That all sounds good Andy but there are 2 issues to deal with (at least):

    1. As an average punter, I don't look for qualifications or associations when I consider going to a class.
      For example, DT and I saw a new MJ class advertised locally. They were closer to home than any others we'd seen and they were OK with taking kids along (to dance or not, either way is fine). So we went and it was dire. The "teacher" wasn't very good (and came across as socially retarded). He played great music, unfortunately it was completely unsuitable for beginners.
    2. So with the above in mind, to make any minimum standards or association membership worth anything, it would have to be compulsory and policed in some way. I'm afraid I think that's highly unlikely.

    Sorry if this seems negative, but I can't see a positive way forward for this.
    The type of people that care about these things would already meet or would strive to meet your standards, the ones who don't care would continue to do a bad job and earn money from it anyway.

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