Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gold Coast, Austra
    Posts
    2,345
    Rep Power
    11

    Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    At dance weekenders, the biggest bug bare for a teacher, is the previous teacher going over time.

    This also affects the punters big time, who have to wait for the next lesson, and maybe the next lesson is cut short to bring things back on time.

    Sometimes there is a freestyle session, which people are hanging out for, but the hotshot teacher, decides, that is not so important.

    I do understand that some teachers think that what they say is very important. Is it important enough to muck up the dance schedule?

    As a teacher and as a dancer, I have been at the wrong end of hotshots (or those who consider themselves hotshots) who cannot keep to time.

    So to those teachers out there, who are happy to go over time, are you simply arrogant or incompetent?

  2. #2
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    North London
    Posts
    9,918
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    I suppose there could always be a third option - inexperience?
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
    "If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine

  3. #3
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I suppose there could always be a third option - inexperience?
    that would be covered by incompetent, albeit "incompetence through inexperience"

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gold Coast, Austra
    Posts
    2,345
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I suppose there could always be a third option - inexperience?
    Mostly the inexperienced are so nervous about getting it right, they finish on time...

    I am sure, should you be asked, you would be very aware of responsibility and timing, certainly at a weekender.

  5. #5
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    North London
    Posts
    9,918
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Mostly the inexperienced are so nervous about getting it right, they finish on time...
    Actually, I make you right.

    Anyone (with any sense) who's about to take the stage in front of such a large crowd for the first time, is bound to have rehearsed over and over. They'll be out to impress, not only the punters but the organisers too!

    I suppose the inexperience could take over, if any unforeseen incidences happened, like someone shouting out a question and then more people expressing a wish to know the answer etc

    I am sure, should you be asked, you would be very aware of responsibility and timing,
    I would but then again I'm a stickler for time keeping in any situation anyway!
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
    "If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine

  6. #6
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Belfast
    Posts
    8,925
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    In any teaching situation you can either go through exactly what you've planned to do, to a strict time (which means if a lesson has different parts you need to have an idea how long each part will take) - or you pace the lesson to match the students.

    If the students learn more slowly, you might have to drop off part of what you had planned to teach in order to finish on time. If they learn quickly, you might choose to add something on, but that also runs the risk of running over time.

    On a regular class night this usually isn't a problem as you have an idea where your class is at and you can plan accordingly. But as a guest teacher somewhere, its hard to judge level in advance.

    So you have a choice. If another teacher is coming along behind you, straight away then you pretty much have to finish on time. But if there is a gap, you have to make the judgement call whether you are most benefitting your students to give them that little bit of extra time or whether to stick to the timetable.

    IMO that's neither arrogance or incompetence, but wanting to pace your lesson to the class.

    Running over time because the class started late because the teacher wasn't there on time is a different matter.

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gold Coast, Austra
    Posts
    2,345
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    So you have a choice. If another teacher is coming along behind you, straight away then you pretty much have to finish on time.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    But if there is a gap, you have to make the judgement call whether you are most benefitting your students to give them that little bit of extra time or whether to stick to the timetable.

    IMO that's neither arrogance or incompetence, but wanting to pace your lesson to the class.
    No, that is arrogance. You cannot do what is asked of you... finish on time, and you think you are so "great" that those waiting for you to finish and spend time on freestyle will understand.

    Wake up, those students expecting a 1 hour class (who have to wait around and listen to the extra wibbling), and those people wanting to get on and freestyle, do not think the same as you...

  8. #8
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    So to those teachers out there, who are happy to go over time, are you simply arrogant or incompetent?
    Or enthusiastic?

  9. #9
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Belfast
    Posts
    8,925
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    I was just putting forward a possible alternative - not sure if this is how any dance teachers function.

    Sounds like you've already made up your mind on this one, not sure why you wanted to start a discussion thread about it?
    Last edited by Lynn; 21st-February-2010 at 12:51 AM.

  10. #10
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    1,156
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    At dance weekenders, the biggest bug bare for a teacher, is the previous teacher going over time.

    This also affects the punters big time, who have to wait for the next lesson, and maybe the next lesson is cut short to bring things back on time.

    ....

    So to those teachers out there, who are happy to go over time, are you simply arrogant or incompetent?
    By and large I don't think it is a big issue.

    When teachers have gone over time, frequently I've thought the choice to do so was a good one.


    Perhaps it is also an organisational/scheduling issue rather than just down to the teachers.

  11. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gold Coast, Austra
    Posts
    2,345
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    I was just putting forward a possible alternative - not sure if this is how any dance teachers function.

    Sounds like you've already made up your mind on this one, not sure why you wanted to start a discussion thread about it?
    Just presenting my opinion and opening up for other peoples opinion.

    Not meaning to directly attack you Lynn, the bluntness in my post might have offended, if so, please accept a peace offering

    Yes I feel strongly about it, but also interested to know why some people regularly do it and what people really think about it...

    It might well be that most people are fine with it and I am in the minority.

  12. #12
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Belfast
    Posts
    8,925
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Not meaning to directly attack you Lynn, the bluntness in my post might have offended, if so, please accept a peace offering
    No problem, I'm not a dance teacher so didn't take it personally against me - but I am used to adjusting my teaching material to suit the pace of the class, I just thought maybe some dance teachers do that too.

    Shouldn't be an issue in a regular class teaching your standard 3 moves, but in a workshop, or weekender class (which is what you specifically mentioned) I could see it being different.

    Most weekenders I've been on, when there is music between the classes, its been for those in the class to practice what they have just learnt, rather than general freestyle time. So its not like the teacher is making anyone sit around and wait to dance - there is always music on in another room if someone wants to freestyle.

  13. #13
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Belfast
    Posts
    8,925
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Yes I feel strongly about it, but also interested to know why some people regularly do it and what people really think about it...

    It might well be that most people are fine with it and I am in the minority.
    You feel strongly about it happening - I can understand that if its affecting you in some way, but you also seem to have strong opinions about why it happens. You only had negative reasons for a teacher running over time - I was trying to think of some other reasons.

  14. #14
    Registered User spindr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Brizzle
    Posts
    1,617
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    "A few minutes" can seem fairly short if you're inside a loo, whereas they can seem a long time if you're waiting impatiently outside

    It's the same for dance classes -- those in the class want the class to be the length specified on the timetable, irrespective of whether it started on time -- those not in the class (who probably assume the class started on time) want the class to finish as advertised.

    There's probably no good solution for either group.

    Now, if anyone can find a good solution for encouraging teachers to be brief and to the point -- that'd be most welcome -- my local venue has recently changed teachers and the class that used to teach 3 or 4 challenging moves is now slowed so much we are down to 3 and sometimes 2 average moves

    Although, I have now learnt from our new loquacious teachers that to dance I need a connection -- and to have a connection I need to be connected -- and there are connection points (unspecified) -- and when I am connected I will have a connection It's an interesting circular discussion, but not so useful if there's no technical detail on the way one could actually ascend to this mythical state of mutual connectivity.

    SpinDr

  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gold Coast, Austra
    Posts
    2,345
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    You feel strongly about it happening - I can understand that if its affecting you in some way, but you also seem to have strong opinions about why it happens. You only had negative reasons for a teacher running over time - I was trying to think of some other reasons.

    Thank you Lynn for taking time to read the thread and contribute.

    I too have spent many years as a teacher, in the corporate world, and I am aware of the challenges of putting across the material you want to, in the time given to an audience who can be quick or slow to pick up the concepts.
    It is indeed a skill. It is my experience that it can be done every time if you adapt your material as you go. It is not however always easy.

    The main problem I have encountered in the dance world, especially at weekenders where there is a strick timetable, is that it seems to be the same few people who almost always go overtime.
    This has several times resulted in me cutting my own class short to bring the weekend back on track. This I can do, but it does give less of a workshop for those who had to wait for the workshop of thier choice and then had a shorter workshop than expected.

  16. #16
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Belfast
    Posts
    8,925
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    This has several times resulted in me cutting my own class short to bring the weekend back on track. This I can do, but it does give less of a workshop for those who had to wait for the workshop of thier choice and then had a shorter workshop than expected.
    Yeah - if another teacher is waiting to start a class 10 mins after the last one ends, then the class does need to end on time so that the other teacher can get set up.

    On one of the teacher training courses I did we had prompts of '5 mins', '1 min' etc to hold up so the trainee teacher knew their time was about to come to an end.

    Perhaps some dance teachers either haven't had proper training, or their training didn't include enough about time management?

  17. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gold Coast, Austra
    Posts
    2,345
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Yeah - if another teacher is waiting to start a class 10 mins after the last one ends, then the class does need to end on time so that the other teacher can get set up.

    On one of the teacher training courses I did we had prompts of '5 mins', '1 min' etc to hold up so the trainee teacher knew their time was about to come to an end.

    Perhaps some dance teachers either haven't had proper training, or their training didn't include enough about time management?
    I agree.

    On one occation the teacher got a 5 minute promp, then was told "time", then the organiser even walked on stage to tell him to finish, and he still went on for longer.

    This resulted in me not having time to set up the mic correctly for my voice.. no time to walk the room and test. It also mean a shorter class, even though my class had the highest attendees for that weekend.

    My first thoughs are arrogance or incompetance, but yes, could simply be, bad time management... What I do know, is when I teach time management in the corporate world.... I cannot go over time!!!

  18. #18
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Or it could be the fact that you can't see a clock while you're teaching!

    This is something that really bugs me at a venue. It's fabulous to be able to see a clock on the back wall. Then you know how you're doing for time. I remember teaching double trouble at Camber in the main room on a stage the size of a large dining table. The only way I could keep track of the time was to put my watch on the corner of this tiny stage and glance at it once in a while - that was until one of my partners kicked my watch off the stage

    I still ran to time as I jumped off the stage and retrieved my watch. But it does illustrate that another reason to over-run is that you don't actually know the time.

  19. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Waltham abbey
    Posts
    4,610
    Blog Entries
    4
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Or it could be the fact that you can't see a clock while you're teaching!

    This is something that really bugs me at a venue. It's fabulous to be able to see a clock on the back wall. Then you know how you're doing for time. I remember teaching double trouble at Camber in the main room on a stage the size of a large dining table. The only way I could keep track of the time was to put my watch on the corner of this tiny stage and glance at it once in a while - that was until one of my partners kicked my watch off the stage

    I still ran to time as I jumped off the stage and retrieved my watch. But it does illustrate that another reason to over-run is that you don't actually know the time.
    Andy

    have you got the time?

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gold Coast, Austra
    Posts
    2,345
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Is it arrogance or incompetence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Or it could be the fact that you can't see a clock while you're teaching!

    This is something that really bugs me at a venue. It's fabulous to be able to see a clock on the back wall. Then you know how you're doing for time. I remember teaching double trouble at Camber in the main room on a stage the size of a large dining table. The only way I could keep track of the time was to put my watch on the corner of this tiny stage and glance at it once in a while - that was until one of my partners kicked my watch off the stage

    I still ran to time as I jumped off the stage and retrieved my watch. But it does illustrate that another reason to over-run is that you don't actually know the time.
    Nice try Andy

    So a clock on the back wall of somewhere like Camber would help you

    What are you going to use, super specs

    As we have discussed before, running 5 mins over time in a normal lesson environment, such as a regular evening class, although not ideal, should not make the punters want to pour petrol over you and set you alight. (a note for the perdantic, do not pour petrol over any teacher - [even Andy]!)

    There is however IMHO a duty to deliver what you say you will deliver, if you are booked for a 1 hour slot, then 1 hour it is. It becomes a larger problem when many people are hanging out for the next "event", be that a practice session, a freestyle or the next lesson on the timetable.

    Weekenders make this a larger problem due to the number of people waiting to "do the next thing" and due to timetables being advertised and then many people have to "hang around" while the previous class finishes, and if more than one room, then the punters wander in late to the lesson in the other room.

    (I hope it was a cheap watch)

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •