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Thread: Toughen up or chicken out?

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    Toughen up or chicken out?

    Hi All,

    I'm stuck with a problem, well actually two and thought I would turn to the masses for advice.

    1) Ladies, who do their own thing in a class, rather than what the teacher is saying they should do. Should I just leave them or should I continue as I currently do in asking "Would you mind stepping further/ changing your weight etc. as it makes it easier for me". While this gets me rolled eyes, at least they move to the right position. (Lets assume I understand the move and not get bogged down in can you lead arguments, I think I have a reasonable lead)

    2) Dancing with ladies and never saying no. I had to go to the chiropractors on Monday after Saturday's dancing. Apparently my 5th and 6th rib had popped out in what he described as significant physical trauma. I know when it happened, it was dancing with a lady who assists you in your dancing with vigorous hand movements and putting all her weight through you. I suddenly felt a burning pain in the shoulder (caused by the ribs popping out and the muscles being disrupted). Yes I know I should avoid dancers like this, but sometimes you can't see people dancing before and if you get tapped on the shoulder then its pot luck. I will admit it does tend to be the larger women who do this, but its no guide as at Brean last year, I was faced with a robust strong looking lady who turned out to be one of the smoothest and lovely dancers I've ever met. Should I just dance crap as soon as I realise so they leave me alone, should I toughen up and not be such a wuss its only pain or should I just stop the dance and walk away?

    All advice welcome

    Phil

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    Registered User daveb9000's Avatar
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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    1) Ladies, who do their own thing in a class, rather than what the teacher is saying they should do.
    One of my tactics is just to stop moving altogether and see how long it takes them to realise that they are doing it all themselves. This is usually met with a slightly embarrassed smile as they realise 'they' were leading. On the other hand, if it's a beginner, they probably don't realise they are doing it as they are effectively trying to learn the choreography of the move by copying the teacher. In this case, in the interest of discouraging bad habits, I usually ask them to only watch the stage for the demonstration, but to watch me when we are practicing the move. Sometimes a friendly reminder to wait to be led is all it takes, but it can depend on many factors; whether you know them or not, their desire to learn...

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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    The following advice is purely of the what-I-do variety.

    1) Leave them. Unprompted advice is rarely well received (a lesson hard learned), and I prefer to focus on improving my own learning when I'm taking lessons - there is the danger that while I'm advising my follow, I'm missing important words of wisdom from the teacher.

    2) I have had a back condition for some years, and it can leave me somewhat vulnerable to similar issues.

    I find that the easiest way to change my partners' following is to change my leading - if I tense everything up, so will she - and that's when injuries become lightly. So.

    The first thing I do in these circumstances is force myself to relax as much as possible - if I hold unnecessary tension in my body or arms, I'm far more likely to to get damaged. Secondly, I lighten my lead. As much as I possibly can. If I get this right, what I find 99% of the time is that my partner will also relax, and will lighten her follow. Which ends up being better for both of us.

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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    The following advice is purely of the what-I-do variety.

    -snip-

    Which ends up being better for both of us.
    This is very good advice. Unless you are a teacher or member of the crew for that venue, never give unasked for advice to a partner, even in a lesson.

    And give your hand away to your partner if they keep taking it to places you don't want it to go - think of your arm as a shock absorber, let it move with your partners hand but keep control of your own body from the shoulder. Let her take control of your hand but you control the rest and stop it getting injured.

    I know it doesn't feel like it, but you are 50% responsible for any injury you get from a partner who is forceful. That is because you meet and match the force of your partner with an equal and opposite force. If you actively follow what your partner is doing rather than resisting it you are reducing the tension of the connection. Think of it as the difference between a collision between two cars travelling in opposite directions and two cars travelling in the same direction.

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    Registered User Phil_dB's Avatar
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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    1) Agree with SC, - Smile & ignore, - they'll be another one along in a minute

    2) I remember dancing with one particular heavy handed follow who was using all her weight to yank my shoulder out of its socket (btw, she must have been all of 8 stone max), - I did what Straycat described, - just relaxed and tried to protect myself as much as I could. Another thing I do is to choose moves which dont allow her the option of yanking me about.

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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    Good advice. I will bear it in mind. I see what you mean Andy, I'm struck with an afflicition that I don't say no to people and then don't want to give them a crap dance so certainly partly my fault you are right.

    What do you do with the women who grab your hand tight, letting the lead go light just seems to encourage them they should grip tighter and swing harder to "help".

    While we're on the subject, I had an interesting lady on the weekend whose hand went bop bop bop bounce bounce bounce by 3-4 inches continously, nothing I could do would stop the bouncing, it even continued when we went into a sway, shoulder sway, basket. It was sort of like a handshake for 4 minutes. Very disconcerting.

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    While we're on the subject, I had an interesting lady on the weekend whose hand went bop bop bop bounce bounce bounce by 3-4 inches continously, nothing I could do would stop the bouncing, it even continued when we went into a sway, shoulder sway, basket. It was sort of like a handshake for 4 minutes. Very disconcerting.
    Try putting her hand down your trousers next time - I'm sure that will lead to a far happier experience...

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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    What do you do with the women who grab your hand tight, letting the lead go light just seems to encourage them they should grip tighter and swing harder to "help".
    When I lead and have this issue (or if vice versa when I'm following), I'm quite blunt about things. I prise their fingers off, and if this doesn't work, I'll ask them outright to stop as it's hurting me. Doesn't often work, but should get through to them that if I'm refuse them a dance or don't request a dance again, that might be the reason. If it's a beginner or someone who wants to learn they're usually apologetic or don't realise they're doing it. And if they don't take any notice it's usually someone who thinks they're better than they are anyway and it's no loss to me if I don't have to dance with them again.

    In class situations, I usually do what Davedb9000 does and stop in position until they realise that they should be waiting for me to lead. I want to learn my role not what they think they're learning, so I want to make sure I have the chance to lead properly.

    Mind you, I'm a taxi, so maybe they expect me to be picky about little things when i'm dancing.

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    Registered User Phil_dB's Avatar
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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post

    While we're on the subject, I had an interesting lady on the weekend whose hand went bop bop bop bounce bounce bounce by 3-4 inches continously, nothing I could do would stop the bouncing, it even continued when we went into a sway, shoulder sway, basket. It was sort of like a handshake for 4 minutes. Very disconcerting.
    I had a bouncer on tuesday, - I kept on going in & out of moves where I led her by with my hand on her back, hips or shoulders, & lots of 1st move walkthrough/manhatteny type moves & let go with my-left/her-right hand completely.

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Try putting her hand down your trousers next time - I'm sure that will lead to a far happier experience...
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
    "If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine

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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Try putting her hand down your trousers next time - I'm sure that will lead to a far happier experience...
    Thanks for that, I'll make sure to send her over to you straight afterwards

    Would you prefer a slow or quick track?

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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    I had a bouncer on tuesday, - I kept on going in & out of moves where I led her by with my hand on her back, hips or shoulders, & lots of 1st move walkthrough/manhatteny type moves & let go with my-left/her-right hand completely.
    If I get a bouncy hand lead.. sometimes (if I'm feeling wicked) I jump up down with the bounce
    Last edited by Lory; 18th-February-2010 at 03:46 PM.
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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    What do you do with the women who grab your hand tight, letting the lead go light just seems to encourage them they should grip tighter and swing harder to "help"
    In my experience ladies hold on because they feel they might lose the connection if they do not. This might be due to the connection you are offering or it might be due to their inexperience. If they are experienced dancers you need to change your hand shape to ensure they feel secure in their connection. If you are dancing with a beginner change the moves so they feel safe and it's OK to tell them they don't need to hang on so tight.

    On the subject of ladies asking you for a dance. My rules at my classes are that a gentleman never refuses to dance with a lady. He might postpone the dance but he must try to keep the appointment that he has postponed. I find pleasure in every dance and would never refuse.

    N.B. My rules are different for ladies. I tell them that we aren't a nightclub or speed dating night. Therefore you should not refuse a dance because you don't like the look of a guy or simply do not fancy him. We're here to dance and that is all that has been offered. However, I do say that a lady who disliked a dance with a guy is under no obligation to repeat the experience.

    Why is there a difference? It's nothing to do with being sexist. It's to do with the lead and follow nature of the dance. In general the guy leads the dance and controls what happens. If a guy doesn't like what's happening he can change the dance by changing what he leads. If a lady doesn't like what's happening while she's following she only has one option and that is to stop dancing with the guy.
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 18th-February-2010 at 02:02 PM.

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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    1) Ladies, who do their own thing in a class, rather than what the teacher is saying they should do. Should I just leave them or should I continue as I currently do in asking "Would you mind stepping further/ changing your weight etc. as it makes it easier for me".
    You are approaching giving advice in the right way; making it them helping you. However, I agree with most folk above - if they don't want to learn, then don't tell them something they don't want to hear.
    Personally I use these people to see if I can change how I move and lead: If they are self-leading through the move, then I should be able to match my lead so it follows their path perfectly - If I can't, then I should be able to feel where it's going "wrong"...
    Of course that relies on me paying attention and actually being bothered to work on my own dancing - which is not really as often as I delude my self it is
    If I can't, then the simple act of trying to following the follower ensures that I have a light hold and it feels to my partner like I am leading them perfectly

    2) Dancing with ladies and never saying no.~ Should I just dance crap as soon as I realise so they leave me alone, should I toughen up and not be such a wuss its only pain or should I just stop the dance and walk away?
    Rule #1 is don't cause injury to your partner; either directly or indirectly.
    But rule #0 is self-preservation: don't hurt yourself or place yourself in harm's way.

    There are techniques you can learn that will let you dance with these people and come away un-injured. You may even enjoy the dance.
    Some of it comes down to how you lead; guide the existing momentum rather than drag. Some of it is leading 'properly'; all through the move rather than just at the 'key' points. Some of it is letting yourself be moved by your partner so you move with them. Some of it is blocking your partner's excessive movement. Some if it is experience.

    Personally I find it a challenge and normally can rise to it and have a great dance: I think that the forceful follow a combination of over-enthusiasm and thinking that "following" is recognising a pattern and executing it. I seldom lead recognisable patterns and can change things that are being anticipated. And I can match most folk's enthusiasm. Once I get a follower trusting me, that I can actually lead, then they tend to relax and actually let me lead.

    It's the same with gripping - as Andy says, it's normally a sense of insecurity and lack of trust in their partner. If you can gain your partner's trust, get them to relax and have fun; then you will probably find that their grip lessens. Up to that point, use leads against your partner's wrists, shoulders, hips, ... Use invisible grease and slip from the grip every time. Use palm-to-palm contact during turns. Let the contact break when your partner over-extends. Be there for your partner with a smile and gentle collection of the hand after every break of contact and free-spin.

    {have a look at the links on my syg, esp the "Techniques of Leading" one}

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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    1) Leave them. Unprompted advice is rarely well received (a lesson hard learned), and I prefer to focus on improving my own learning when I'm taking lessons - there is the danger that while I'm advising my follow, I'm missing important words of wisdom from the teacher.



    I find that the easiest way to change my partners' following is to change my leading - if I tense everything up, so will she - and that's when injuries become lightly. So.
    Body language makes just as big a difference when we’re dancing as it does in our normal lives, but it’s easy to forget that.
    That said, if your partner is very focussed on herself for whatever reason*she may not notice the change. I’ve been caught out a few times by finger-twisters precisely because I relaxed and they didn’t. That’s unusual though, and this is still very good advice in general.


    The first thing I do in these circumstances is force myself to relax as much as possible - if I hold unnecessary tension in my body or arms, I'm far more likely to to get damaged. Secondly, I lighten my lead. As much as I possibly can. If I get this right, what I find 99% of the time is that my partner will also relax, and will lighten her follow. Which ends up being better for both of us.
    I do something similar, although I sometimes end up going one step further and stop trying to really lead them at all. Instead I’ll start a move of my choosing, and then adjust whatever I’m doing to suit how they decide to move.
    There’s a good argument that this approach is a cop-out, but I’d rather protect myself and make a partner (who in all honesty I’m unlikely to dance with again) at least feel good for a few minutes than try to learn or teach something.


    *Because she isn’t confident enough to trust she’ll do the right thing, because she’s waaaaaaaaay better than all of us and is proving it with her “styling”, because she’s had a private lesson recently and has tunnel vision on something else she’s working on, Because she’s stepping where she knows she has to go for the move she thinks you’re leading, whatever......

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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    For the first question, I mostly ignore it. If they're not listening to the teacher, then they're unlikely to listen to me. I occasionally give simple advice to people I'm dancing with, but it's very rare and not something I make a habit of. The most common example is someone who I think is generally good and would improve significantly with a small chance (the most common ones are, 'take smaller steps' and 'give me some frame to work with'). That might happen half a dozen times a year, at most.

    If it's someone I know (and like) or if someone's asked me for advice, I'm still reluctant, as a rule. But the scope and frequency of any advice is usually the same. General tips, offered very rarely.

    For the second question, I avoid dancing with people I don't enjoy dancing with: the bouncers, the grippers, the arhythmic, the frameless and so on. I dance to enjoy myself so I see little point in having many dances where I don't enjoy myself. This does mean I occasionally refuse a dance: I've no problem with saying no to someone as long as I'm not rude about it. The flip side of that means I won't ask someone to dance if I don't think they enjoy dancing with me. That happens far more often than me saying no to someone.

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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    The following advice is purely of the what-I-do variety.

    1) Leave them. Unprompted advice is rarely well received


    2) Besides relaxing as SC described I also find that going into a ballroom hold and then moving in that hold also works well for me. I may just use mambos, I may do a few turns or I may use it as an opportunity to try and take the tension out of her arms. It all depends on my reading of the lady and what I think I may be able to achieve in the dance if/when I feel more comfortable.

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    Re: Toughen up or chicken out?

    When faced with a partner who is heavy-handed, backleading or bouncy, unless what they do actually causes me physical discomfort or pain, I tend to just grin and bear it. It's only one dance, after all. I tend to avoid asking these people, but I don't refuse to dance with them.

    If someone is doing something that either hurts me or is very likely to do so, I tell them straight out what the problem is and ask them not to do whatever it is. If they persist and don't change, then I won't dance with them again. Thankfully this situation is very rare, and I've only ever had to do this with one or two women. Most people are unaware that they are hurting you and are only too willing to put it right when it's pointed out to them.

    I'm not willing to compromise on this, as I have a weak shoulder from previous injuries, and I'm not willing to risk more damage just because someone isn't willing to listen to advice.

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