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Thread: Metropolis - The Aftermath

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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ...........big snip ......... Skegmess being a prime example..

    was it a typo ????


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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I tend to take this kind of thing very literally, so I read it as 'more than one dancer'. It is intended to imply a great deal more, of course, but for the statement to be literally true, it only needs to refer to two (or more) dancers. Being me, I read it, took it literally, and thought "That's not a very impressive claim."
    Coming from the world of Pharmaceutical Marketing I can tell you that a claim "depression suffers said they were cured" would only be accepted if ALL depression sufferers said they were cured. Even then you'd probably have to get all doctors to agree with all patients before you could make such a claim. In other words, it's a claim that can not be made because it is all embracing - and that is against the industry code of practice.

    I believe there are two possible ways of thinking about the word "dancers". One is that it is the plural of "dancer", meaning two or more dancers. The other is that it means dancers as a whole. As there are two interpretations and the word can be taken either way there is a good chance that the "man on the Clapham Omnibus" would take it to mean all dancers. Therefore it is reasonable for some people to read "dancers" as "all dancers". This means the statement is false and misleading. You need evidence to substantiate what you are saying in your promotions.

    For the sake of argument, let's assume that the word "dancers" in JA's promotion means "the majority of dancers" in an "eight out of ten cats" sense.

    Here are the relevant rules;

    Quote Originally Posted by ASA/CAP Code
    3 Substantiation

    3.1 Before distributing or submitting a marketing communication for publication, marketers must hold documentary evidence to prove all claims, whether direct or implied, that are capable of objective substantiation.
    Relevant evidence should be sent without delay if requested by the ASA or CAP. The adequacy of evidence will be judged on whether it supports both the detailed claims and the overall impression created by the marketing communication. The full name and geographical business address of marketers should be provided without delay if requested by the ASA or CAP.

    3.2 If there is a significant division of informed opinion about any claims made in a marketing communication they should not be portrayed as generally agreed.
    I believe that JA have portrayed their claim as "generally agreed". Reading what Rocky has said it seems there is a "division of informed opinion". IMHO JA should not be making this kind of claim unless they have conducted a survey of a significant sample of all dancers. And those survey results would need to support their claim.

    N.B. Post marketing surveys where they ask their own customers what they think would not support their claim. Obviously their own customers like what they do. However, the claim is "dancers" not "dancers who attend JA events". A comparison would be to ask M&S customers if they like M&S and then claim "shoppers like M&S" - you would need to ask all shoppers, not just M&S customers, if they like M&S to be able to support this claim.

    Am I being pedantic? No more than you would need to be if you were defending a claim in court. In fact, I'm going in to much less detail than a court would require.

  3. #63
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post

    was it a typo ????
    Oh, yes, how silly of me...

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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I've experience going on a forum and after one post having three people claim I must be a 'plant' for some organization I had no interest in. I didn't post there again.
    Well, I suggest that either you are overly sensitive or having had a look at the forums in question you didn't see any reason to post more. I post here with the knowledge that I am one of the most scathing and the welcome is going to be, in general, very welcoming. If you felt they were worthwhile forums, why would a questioning of your motives put you off? The reason most forums have "introduce yourself" threads and the like is to allow for ease of entry into what is already an established community. People who jump in with strong opinions from the off, will get attention negative and positive. Can you imagine joining a group of strangers in a pub and interjecting with a strong specific opinion? You would stand out a mile as a slightly arrogant interloper. Why is a forum different?

    I think a forum (ie an assembly for open discussion) is best when it encourages the largest number of people to contribute.
    And who is to say a questioning reply to your first post does NOT encourage further contribution? It certainly does with me, even if not with you. I think having the first few posts being all but ignored is MORE likely to discourage people from posting further, but perhaps I am completely wrong.

    I think this is true even if some people only post with a hidden agenda. Who cares? If someone only ever posts negative reviews of Ceroc/JA, it becomes obvious, and their opinion loses weight.
    But what is wrong with pointing this out? A bias is not going to be obvious to everyone, so if we think there is a chance of bias should we keep quiet and let others take it as unbiased opinion? Or should we, as others have suggested, leave newbies alone until they are established...if so, for how long? I don't think its outrageous to question and suggest motivation on ANY post, no matter how many have come before.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Well as you've only been on one weekender your point of view is actually pretty worthless isn't it as you have nothing to compare it against.
    We always have our own expectations to compare against, so you're wrong.

    I'm hardly annoyed... EN brought it up, DS said he had agenda for doing so and based on the statement on the website I pointed out that he had every right to pull them up on it. That's all
    Oh he certainly does, and I am fully expecting a denial of an agenda too. I am only suggesting that that's what it sounded like.

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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Well, I suggest that either you are overly sensitive or having had a look at the forums in question you didn't see any reason to post more. ..., why would a questioning of your motives put you off?
    Because I went on one forum (for example) to discuss stock market trading, not discuss my motives. Arguing with strangers about my motives would have been a boring waste of time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    People who jump in with strong opinions from the off, will get attention negative and positive. Can you imagine joining a group of strangers in a pub and interjecting with a strong specific opinion? You would stand out a mile as a slightly arrogant interloper. Why is a forum different?
    It is obviously different because a forum is meant to invite contributions, where as a group of strangers in a pub doesn't. And if a group of strangers invited my opinion, and then claimed my opinion was arrogant or I had a hidden agenda, I would leave the conversation. If they wanted to argue about my opinion I would stay, even if we all disagreed.

    I thought all your points were good in your reply, up until the 'agenda' bit, which undermines the whole debate. You change the topic from the event to the person.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    And who is to say a questioning reply to your first post does NOT encourage further contribution?
    Questioning or commenting on the content of a post does encourage further contribution. Questioning someone's motives or identity, in my opinion, does not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    But what is wrong with pointing this out? A bias is not going to be obvious to everyone, so if we think there is a chance of bias should we keep quiet and let others take it as unbiased opinion?
    Well like I said, whether you are right or wrong I believe it discourages further contribution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    A bias is not going to be obvious to everyone, so if we think there is a chance of bias should we keep quiet and let others take it as unbiased opinion?
    Yes. Having a few biased opinions is a price worth paying for having lots more people posting.

    Anyway everyone's opinion is biased; someone else might post a negative review because they are an arsehole, and someone else a positive review because they are an idiot. I'm still interested to hear what they say, and I'm happy to figure out my own opinion.

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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Anyway everyone's opinion is biased; someone else might post a negative review because they are an arsehole, and someone else a positive review because they are an idiot. I'm still interested to hear what they say, and I'm happy to figure out my own opinion.
    So a balanced review, with positive and negative points, might be written by an idiotic arsehole?

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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I post here with the knowledge that I am one of the most scathing and the welcome is going to be, in general, very welcoming.
    And that's why I'm putting forward a proposal to ban you from the welcoming committee and from interacting with any newbie, until they have at least 5 posts under their belt


    If you felt they were worthwhile forums, why would a questioning of your motives put you off?
    Because forums aren't work, they're not something you have to do, they're something you do supposedly for pleasure.
    So, if every time you post something, its feels like an uphill battle, ones likely to think, why bother?

    If your a teacher and usually get paid for your input, I can doubly see why!

    I think the forum Amir no longer bothers with, has sadly lost a valuable poster and a wealth of knowledge, all because 'their' resident Scather decided to question his motives and allude to him being a plant.

    The reason most forums have "introduce yourself" threads and the like is to allow for ease of entry into what is already an established community. People who jump in with strong opinions from the off, will get attention negative and positive.
    This is true, but what happens in reality, is people usually find out about the "introduction threads" sometime 'after' they've been posting a while.

    Most likely, someone hears about the forum, then logs on and reads the 'latest posts' and post on a subject they have personal knowledge of.... like a recent weekender they've just been on!

    Can you imagine joining a group of strangers in a pub and interjecting with a strong specific opinion?
    Yes


    And who is to say a questioning reply to your first post does NOT encourage further contribution?
    Oh come off it DS, there's ways and 'ways' of asking questions and I'm pretty sure I know which way will be 'most' encouraging

    (How many years is it until your daughter's a teenager?.. I think it'll be mighty wise if you start to find alternative ways of asking questions, that doesn't put her back up immediately )

    It certainly does with me, even if not with you.
    Yes but your weird!

    Or should we, as others have suggested, leave newbies alone until they are established...if so, for how long?
    I'm not suggesting leaving alone but more of a "slowly slowly, catchy monkey" approach!
    Last edited by Lory; 20th-February-2010 at 04:10 PM.
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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Because I went on one forum to discuss stock market trading,
    I take it back... you might not have been such a loss after all!
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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    So a balanced review, with positive and negative points, might be written by an idiotic arsehole?
    Look at that review you posted a link to...

    That IMO is the worst type of review from a pedant who is intent on boring us stupid. What on Earth is a 'proper iron'? And who really cares? Even at Pontins you can borrow a 'proper iron' if you want one. But I am glad to hear that he had a folding thing to put his cases on, 4 fluffy pillows on his bed, 2 mirrors!, an Elle magazine on his coffee table and a crane light... (that's an anglepoise light to the rest of us then..)

    And then 5 paragraphs on changing a light bulb!

    Finally he finishes with this... I do believe that for a first time at this event, things are on the up, this is the future, not the chalets that we are so used to and that really need to be bulldozed/burnt to the ground.

    Which is such a stupid statement - it might be the future for him but not to the 1,000's of dancers who go on the chalet based weekends because they ARE cheap, which means that they can afford more than 1 a year - and who also understand that their enjoyment of an event has more to do with the companionship of their friends than the supply of a folding thingy to put their suitcase on.

    Sure hotel weekends have a place, but if the cheaper option disappeared the weekender market that the majority of dancers enjoy despite their quirkiness would disappear with them.

    If ever a review illustrated Amir's point better it was this one.

    But then Amir did over run by 20 mins on his class which really cheesed our correspondent off, so maybe Amir had an agenda all the time in saying what he did..

  10. #70

    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath of the aftermath of the backlash

    Well my first post anywhere on anything. Very entertaining reading the replies. . thank pos and neg. To those who agree with you are very perceptive. To those that don’t, oh you are very silly. Kidding!

    The bloke in question asked the floor in general if anyone was ‘fixing’ but he was standing right above us at the Rumba. When I raised my hand he barked ‘typical’ right at me and my friend. Not nice. Uncalled for. Chill pills required even if standing in front of the illustrious V&F. If someone asks a question they must be prepared for whatever answer is given. Not go in the huff like a 5 year old!

    Not worth discussing the merits of fixing or not. Hardly ever do it. Who does? It’d be very boring dancing with the same folk all the time but it’s not a crime to find a class hard and try to make it work for you.
    What I meant by ‘jury was out’ was a personal comment after attending two fab JA events, 'Skegness and Scarborough' and telling everyone who’d listen to go go to JA. Manchester has just given me pause for thought. Maybe I had them too much on a pedestal but I will think a bit harder about venue/size of weekender next time. I am fully intending to go to the next Skegness, Ceroc at Southport.

    I certainly don’t have an agenda. That’s a bit funny. Admit to being a bit of a dance event tart. Tried every class locally with every organisation, every party, venue, all the independents too. Do my ballroom at the local council facilities. It’s all good as far as I can see. Don’t have any loyalty to dance organisations any more than I am loyal to Tesco or Sainsbury’s. Whoever sells the beans and I want beans!!

    My experience of the whole jive et al scene is that some folk take it very very seriously which of course is hilarious. The jive ‘food chain’ seems to be very important; blues, WCS etc etc. Who are we kidding. It’s a ‘school disco’ for grown ups and I admit I have fallen in love with it, hanging around church halls, community centres, drinking orange squash, even CONTEMPLATING wearing a sequin (someone shoot me now). Metropolis seemed just a bit too ‘precious’ and that for me personally makes it less fun and along with the beans that’s what I want.

    A big upside from the weekend though, is inspired by the stroppy bloke onstage, I have taken to wearing a scarf indoors on dress down days at the office. Of course some people have been taking the p*ss but I think I look great....... I wonder if I could get a job running dance weekenders......

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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath of the aftermath of the backlash

    Quote Originally Posted by edinburghneville View Post
    If someone asks a question they must be prepared for whatever answer is given. Not go in the huff like a 5 year old!
    Personally, I find people who go off in huffs, hilarious!


    fun and along with the beans, that’s what I want.
    FUN? This is serious business, don't you know?!

    Thank you for posting again even if you do have an agenda
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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Well as you've only been on one weekender your point of view is actually pretty worthless isn't it as you have nothing to compare it against.
    Exactly my point! Keep up, dearheart! Late night last night?

    The point is that it's a true but meaningless claim. Anyone who gets annoyed by it is simply reading their own agenda into it.

    Calm down, dear. Chillax.

    (p.s. the only Weekender I've been to is Breeze, if that helps.....)

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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath of the aftermath of the backlash

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    even if you do have an agenda
    Bugger. Do we need to submit our intentions to the committee & get on the agenda before we can post here now? Bureaucracy gone mad, I tells ya.

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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    What on Earth is a 'proper iron'? And who really cares? Even at Pontins you can borrow a 'proper iron' if you want one. But I am glad to hear that he had a folding thing to put his cases on, 4 fluffy pillows on his bed, 2 mirrors!, an Elle magazine on his coffee table and a crane light... (that's an anglepoise light to the rest of us then..)
    then 5 paragraphs on changing a light bulb!
    Maybe those things are important to him, reviews are personal opinions. It's no different to those that are really fussy about the music and who write reams of negative things about the BPM, the 'journey' the DJ is taking.. to others that isn't important at all, they will dance to anything that's called music.

    it might be the future for him but not to the 1,000's of dancers who go on the chalet based weekends because they ARE cheap, which means that they can afford more than 1 a year - and who also understand that their enjoyment of an event has more to do with the companionship of their friends than the supply of a folding thingy to put their suitcase on.

    Sure hotel weekends have a place, but if the cheaper option disappeared the weekender market that the majority of dancers enjoy despite their quirkiness would disappear with them.
    I totally agree, I have had 14 years of cheap Pontins based weekenders and some fabulous times with some great friends.

    If ever a review illustrated Amir's point better it was this one.

    But then Amir did over run by 20 mins on his class which really cheesed our correspondent off, so maybe Amir had an agenda all the time in saying what he did..
    I'm having a thick moment, I don't understand what you mean by that.

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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    The point is that it's a true but meaningless claim.
    I suppose its a bit like the Carlsberg's slogan, "probably the best lager in the world"

    When they're actually 7th in popularity

    1. Carling
    2. Foster’s
    3. Guinness
    4. Stella Artois
    5. John Smith’s
    6. Tennent’s
    7. Carlsberg
    8. Kronenbourg 1664
    9. Beck’s Vier
    10. Peroni
    11. London Pride
    12. Budweiser
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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I suppose its a bit like the Carlsberg's slogan, "probably the best lager in the world"

    When they're actually 7th in popularity

    1. Carling
    2. Foster’s
    3. Guinness
    4. Stella Artois
    5. John Smith’s
    6. Tennent’s
    7. Carlsberg
    8. Kronenbourg 1664
    9. Beck’s Vier
    10. Peroni
    11. London Pride
    12. Budweiser
    You are confusing "best" and "popular". They are two different things and can not be compared. "Best" is a measure of quality. "Popular" may not be a measure of quality, just a numerical measure of market share.

    The most "popular" weekender may not be condidered the "best". Many people might even think that the most popular can never be the best, possibly the most popular could be the cheapest and chosen based on price rather than quality

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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath of the aftermath of the backlash

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Do we need to submit our intentions to the committee & get on the agenda before we can post here now?
    No, but it'd be handy if you could!
    DS is ready and waiting with the thumbscrews!
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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I don't like to disagree with Lou.
    I can't believe I missed that one!

    Shuddup, Andy! *lol* Some of our best times have been when we disagree.

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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath of the aftermath of the backlash

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    DS is ready and waiting with the thumbscrews!
    And that's news?

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    Re: Metropolis - The Aftermath

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You are confusing "best" and "popular". They are two different things and can not be compared. "Best" is a measure of quality. "Popular" may not be a measure of quality, just a numerical measure of market share.

    The most "popular" weekender may not be condidered the "best". Many people might even think that the most popular can never be the best, possibly the most popular could be the cheapest and chosen based on price rather than quality
    True true, I myself have had wine at £60 per glass and thought it was disgusting and yet thoroughly enjoyed a bottle of cheap house plonk, at £3 a bottle but of course, I'm a heathen with no taste, for voicing that opinion
    Last edited by Lory; 20th-February-2010 at 07:22 PM. Reason: I put a comma in the wrong place
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