Ceroc Floorcraft policy

[JiveLad]

Is there a new floorcraft policy being implemented at Ceroc venues?

The reason I say this is that:

1. At St. Albans last week, there was a statement from the teacher about the importance of floorcraft - and something to the effect that she had spoken to a visitor from somewhere else who said the floorcraft there was not good. (I think the importance of saying 'sorry' if you do bump was also mentioned).

2. At Berko on Sunday, the music was stopped during freestyle (as happened a few weeks ago) and a warning given for people not to do drops (for safety reasons - it was crowded).

3. At Finchley last nite - apparently, the importance of floorcraft was again made clear.

Is this a new policy - to promote floorcraft? If so - why? Are there particular new safety/risk concerns?

I wonder what the best way to 'teach' floorcraft is?

Does this need to be demonstrated on stage - with examples?

Is it actually an issue at your venues?

[Trousers]

<Choke>

Ceroc has a policy about floor craft?

<Splutter>

The only Franchise that I have ever been at that regularly reminded people to dance small, watch out with drops and generally be careful because the venue was busy was in Brockham nr Dorking - Steve Nash (what ever happened to him)
He always made a point to get dancers to think about their floor craft and had a series of fliers on their desk taking about dance safety, and also hygiene which was way before it's time. That was 8 years ago.
I have not seen or heard anyone else since that time.
I have even asked venues to say those things and been ignored.

One or two venues from the same Franchise making a point about the floor being crowded does not equate to a policy methinks.

[geoff332]

Is there a new floorcraft policy being implemented at Ceroc venues?

<Choke>

Ceroc has a policy about floor craft?

<Splutter>

I think that answers that.

Is this a new policy - to promote floorcraft? If so - why? Are there particular new safety/risk concerns?

Why is easy to answer. Ceroc dancers, as a rule, have terrible floorcraft. It's a natural extension of having terrible dancecraft. Basically, when you begin a move, the lead should know where both partners will end up. And both partners should be aware of where other dancers are and where they will be in the near future. But because people don't spin properly, they drift. Because of the lack of proper leading, the direction and control are often missing. Thus it's hard to know where anyone will be. Floorcraft is about dancing within your dance space, being aware of how that space will change and dancing within the changing shape.

Dancing small is often an ambulance solution - it attempts to address the symptom but ignores the problem. Sometimes it's necessary, but the real issue is awareness of your dance space and how to manage that. To be honest, apologising is much the same. Good manners should definitely be encouraged, but they're not a substitute for good floorcraft.

I wonder what the best way to 'teach' floorcraft is?

In NZ, we were forced to dance a class in a third of the room. It makes us think much more carefully about what we were doing. This gave a practical demonstration of having a very limited space. That does slightly miss the point: good floorcraft matters regardless of how much space you have.

Does this need to be demonstrated on stage - with examples?

Demonstrating on stage is rarely going to help. Dancing needs to be learnt by doing. Perhaps more importantly, my experience is the worst offenders for poor floorcraft are either absolute beginners, in whom it's forgivable or very experienced dancers, the majority of which don't attend classes and probably ignore most of what's taught anyway.

Is it actually an issue at your venues?

It can be, particularly at freestyles. I do like space on a dancefloor: and think that ceroc venues tend to overcrowd the dancefloors anyway. But that's really a separate issue.

[emmylou25]

I would say that the mention of floorcraft depends on the teacher and how good they are at reading the ability of/danger signals coming from the people dancing on the floor. Quite a few of the teachers where i dance mention watching out for other people on the dance floor, looking where you're going, not taking massive steps back, and not leading drops when the floor's crowded. However, a lot of these comments are coming from teachers who've learnt these things from other dance styles and are transferring their knowledge/technique to their ceroc teaching & tips and definitely isn't a consistent message.

But, however much a teacher mentions it, the onus has to be on the actual dancers as some of the worst culprits are the ones who don't listen in class or don't really think about how they're leading/following and have no spatial awareness.

In NZ, we were forced to dance a class in a third of the room. It makes us think much more carefully about what we were doing. This gave a practical demonstration of having a very limited space. That does slightly miss the point: good floorcraft matters regardless of how much space you have.

I've tried this in a couple of taxi beginner practise sessions where the beginners are then going to be let loose into a really busy freestyle floor. By working the couples in a smaller circle with spares round the outside to create an imaginary barrier, it means the beginners are a lot more aware of where they're dancing. They also tend to concentrate on other people around them, rather than panicking they don't know the steps. It shows that they can do the steps anyway, and they're usually surprised at how little they do need to crash into people. (Whether of course this is then translated onto the freestyle floor is another question!)

[Trousers]

I think the venue manager should go around the room on arrival with a roll of duck tape

Drop lines of tape about 3 metres long around the floor

Then the couples can aim to stay on their lines.
We are taught the moves in a slot we should be able to repeat that in a freestyle dance.
Maybe it would stop couples wandering about the floor like they are on a ouija board. Ok there will be moments when a move does not finish in the slot but it is really really easy to push the girl back where she should be. On the Slot on the line! Oh and Cant find a line wait till the next track.

I think it would work - Well it would work for me - I do it already


and of course if couples constantly leave their slot the venue manager will have a 9mm Glock17, as used worldwide by Law Enforcement Agencies, fitted with a silencer (dont want to spoil the track do we) to mete out summary punishment!
May need a mop and bucket available though!

[CJ]

..stuff...

I think U've gone just too far!! I think it's absolutely preposterous what U have suggested!!! There's no need for a silencer, they should be shot on a break!!

[Baruch]

and of course if couples constantly leave their slot the venue manager will have a 9mm Glock17, as used worldwide by Law Enforcement Agencies, fitted with a silencer (dont want to spoil the track do we) to mete out summary punishment!
May need a mop and bucket available though!

An easier solution would be a taser. Not only would it avoid the need for a mop and bucket (wet floors are dangerous to dance on, don'tcha know) but if the person's floorcraft was really bad, nobody other than the venue manager and the culprit would know they had been tasered!

[JiveLad]

I think the venue manager should go around the room on arrival with a roll of duck tape

Drop lines of tape about 3 metres long around the floor

Then the couples can aim to stay on their lines.
We are taught the moves in a slot we should be able to repeat that in a freestyle dance.
Maybe it would stop couples wandering about the floor like they are on a ouija board. Ok there will be moments when a move does not finish in the slot but it is really really easy to push the girl back where she should be. On the Slot on the line! Oh and Cant find a line wait till the next track.

I think it would work - Well it would work for me - I do it already


and of course if couples constantly leave their slot the venue manager will have a 9mm Glock17, as used worldwide by Law Enforcement Agencies, fitted with a silencer (dont want to spoil the track do we) to mete out summary punishment!
May need a mop and bucket available though!

Interestingly - last Thursday - a similar point was made by the teacher - about dancing in a "line" (the word 'slot' was not used). And the point was made several times to dance in a "line".

Which is interesting, because the latest issue of Jive Magazine which dropped through the door today has an article on different dance styles - and classes them as to whether they are 'slotted' or 'circular' in structure.

According to this article (by Nigel Anderson):

Modern Jive is circular.
WCS is slotted.
Balboa is circular.
Lindy Hop is circular
Boogie Woogie is slotted.
.....

PS
The magazine also has nearly 3 pages of star sign stuff - so apparently for me, it says "take care to avoid heated conversations" - and "try a different club or freestyle".

[geoff332]

An easier solution would be a taser. Not only would it avoid the need for a mop and bucket (wet floors are dangerous to dance on, don'tcha know) but if the person's floorcraft was really bad, nobody other than the venue manager and the culprit would know they had been tasered!

I was about to say you were wrong: people do react when tasered - often quite dramatically. But then I remembered there's a fine line between "taser-induced twitching" and "styling" (at least in some cases).

[Trousers]

"taser-induced twitching" and "styling"

Awwww some one was being tasered in Leamington last night!!

[Gav]

According to this article (by Nigel Anderson):

Modern Jive is circular.
WCS is slotted.
Balboa is circular.
Lindy Hop is circular
Boogie Woogie is slotted.

Takes some balls to define those so absolutely. Either that or he doesn't care about all the protests he'll get (MJ can be slotted, Lindy is slotted, etc).

[Trousers]

I have a slot I call Ted!

[Bubble]

Is this a new policy - to promote floorcraft? If so - why? Are there particular new safety/risk concerns?

I wonder if this is anything to do with insurance.

To defend yourself against lawsuits you have to assume everyone is stupid. If you haven't explicitly told people not to bump and barge their way through a dance then you could be found negligent if someone is injured. If you've told/warned everyone then the fault is the person who bumped you rather than the organiser.

It's the same with everything else now, so why not Modern Jive. When I buy cheese I am helpfully reminded on the packet that 'this product contains milk'. A friend of mine bought a set of screwdrivers and was advised on the packaging 'do not insert into ear'.

[Gadget]

I think U've gone just too far!! I think it's absolutely preposterous what U have suggested!!! There's no need for a silencer, they should be shot on a break!!

Don't be silly: then you're culling all the ones that might turn into decent dancers - only the decent ones will stop on a break long enough to draw a bead!

Perhaps use a current through the duct tape?


Anyway: MJ is amorphous - it takes up the space offered to it. Most moves involve the follower passing to the lead's right, most followers don't turn or spin perfectly so the lead rotates to face, most lead's & followers orientate themselves on their partners who move about fairly randomly, most dancers are lazy and don't completely finish a move. End result is that the space occupied by most MJ dancers tends to be a kind of rotating oval.

It's taught slotted, but with both partners sharing the movement - both side-step the central slot line to pass and let the other pass (as opposed to WCS where the lead tends to cross the slot and the follower has right of way).

It's danced in a press of boddies that are all moving and dancing at various times, with various distance, changing the shape and volume of space with every beat. One part of "floorcraft" is adapting your movements (& your partner's) to match this space. Seldom is the solution as simple as 'slotted' or 'circular'.

I think that MJ should only be solely "slotted" when learning or developing a sense of awareness and floorcraft. Once you know how to control your own position and lead the follower to a specific position, then it can be rotational, circular, slotted, progressive, static or whatever matches the music, space and partner.

[rtwwpad]

I believe all the ladies should wear large hooped skirts. This will stop them
a) treading on me with their heels
b) doing stupid flung out arm spins which smack me in the head

i may be biased as strangely enough I got smacked in the back of the head by a lady's elbow on Friday. She's a nice dancer, the bloke she was dancing with isn't so hot. I was in a nice slotted groove and it came out of nowhere. she apologised. He didn't but he did look sheepish. I have words to describe him but I can't use them on the forum.

[Rocky]

.He didn't but he did look sheepish. I have words to describe him but I can't use them on the forum.

Shaun?
.

[Rocky]

...Ceroc dancers, as a rule, have terrible floorcraft. It's a natural extension of having terrible dancecraft. Basically, when you begin a move, the lead should know where both partners will end up. And both partners should be aware of where other dancers are and where they will be in the near future. But because people don't spin properly, they drift. Because of the lack of proper leading, the direction and control are often missing. Thus it's hard to know where anyone will be. .

Ceroc dancers 'as a rule' can't dance, can't lead, can't follow and can't spin... nothing like a series of sweeping statements is there?

What a load of twat!

Some people have bad floorcraft but the vast majority don't or by definition everyone would get hoofed over everytime they danced.

Beginners are by far the worst offenders because they simply haven't learnt about controlling their limbs properly yet. The next worst offenders are those that believe it's everyone else's fault.

Newsflash! It's a much your responsibility to move out of the way of being trodden on as it is for someone to ensure that they are aware enough not to tread on you. Likewise it's a leads responsibility not to lead you into someone else's path but also your responsibility not to move into someone else's path if you are lead to do so.

And yes, you should learn to cultivate some eyes in the back of your arse..

[rtwwpad]

Shaun?
.

of his manhood if at all possible. Some freak accident would be fine.

[Andy McGregor]

And yes, you should learn to cultivate some eyes in the back of your arse..

Unfortunately they're blinded by the sun shining out of other peope's ...

.. plus, does and arse have a "back" or front? We know it has sides

On the subject of floorcraft, I find that people need to be reminded every once in a while that they need to take care on the floor to avoid collisions. For most people the risk of collision on a dance floor should be part of their risk assessment. However, the only actions you can take as an organiser are to warn people of the risk, maximise the space available and limit the numbers on the floor by having an entry limit that you consider safe. Unfortunately that safe number is usually found by reaching and unsafe level.

[NZ Monkey]

In NZ, we were forced to dance a class in a third of the room. It makes us think much more carefully about what we were doing. This gave a practical demonstration of having a very limited space. That does slightly miss the point: good floorcraft matters regardless of how much space you have.

To be fair, that exercise isn’t routinely performed so most people only do it in their “moving up” workshops. I’m not sure it translates particularly effectively to the dance floor except in a minority of cases (which is better than no cases at all....but still).

As with most things there is a lot of variation between venues, but I agree that in general floorcraft at Lorne Street (the venue Geoff is usually referring to for those not in the know) is considerably better than other venues I’ve danced at. Even then it can still get a little choppy in places on a Friday night.

I think the biggest factor is that the dancers treat the classes a little more like classes than they do in the UK, so tend to listen to these details a little more. It's still the same ballpark of course, and there are still plenty who don't listen, but on average there is a difference and in my opinion it shows.