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    Forgive My Ignorance

    I have been Cerocing for 17 years (next week). I have probably averaged 3 nights/week. Though I have been overseas since September 2005 and now only dance once a week. But I do seem to have lost touch with some of the language. In particular WSC and MJ. I am assuming MJ is the same as Ceroc (which it seems is being used less and less these days see below). But what exactly is West Coast Swing and how long has it been popular? Is there a noticeable difference between the music?

    Can someone please explain to me the differences.


    Is there a reason for referring to Modern Jive rather than Ceroc?

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    Re: Forgive My Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Can someone please explain to me the differences.


    Is there a reason for referring to Modern Jive rather than Ceroc?
    Ceroc is a regisetered trade mark for a company with many franchises.....

    there are many other independants who teach the dance "modern jive" who are not under the ceroc TM franchise.

    it has become the norm to describe the dance as "Modern jive".


    As for WCS.... I am no expert on the technical niceties... except to say WCS is imported from USA has a tighter emphasis on connection and is danced slotted in the main. it is generally danced to a different beat than majority of MJ and although I can hear the difference I am unable to explain with any authority in words.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Forgive My Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    I have been Cerocing for 17 years (next week). I have probably averaged 3 nights/week. Though I have been overseas since September 2005 and now only dance once a week. But I do seem to have lost touch with some of the language. In particular WSC and MJ. I am assuming MJ is the same as Ceroc (which it seems is being used less and less these days see below). But what exactly is West Coast Swing and how long has it been popular?
    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Swing to learn more about the dance. There have people dancing it in the UK for donkey's years, but it has only really taken off in about the last 5 years, and it's still very much a minority taste compared with MJ/Ceroc.

    Is there a noticeable difference between the music?
    WCS music speed is typically something like 80 - 135bpm, as compared with Modern Jive's 110 - 155. Obviously, there's a large overlap there, and lots of WCS music is equally good for MJ and vice versa.

    Can someone please explain to me the differences.
    WCS has much more defined footwork, the timing involves finer subdivisions of a beat than standard MJ does. It's always danced in a slot, and there are a lot fewer compression moves than MJ. It is also much smoother than classic MJ.

    It should be noted that a sizeable contingent of MJ dancers have 'stolen' ideas from WCS, so you find a lot of MJ dancers who dance smoothly in a slot without much use of compression.

    Is there a reason for referring to Modern Jive rather than Ceroc?
    Ceroc is the name of a company (that happens to teach a dance). Unless you work for Ceroc, you can't really say you are teaching Ceroc. Modern Jive is the generic term.

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    Re: Forgive My Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Is there a reason for referring to Modern Jive rather than Ceroc?
    Modern Jive (MJ) is the style of dance, Ceroc is the name of a company that teaches Modern Jive.

    I don't do WCS, but as far as I'm aware the differences are that:

    • WCS uses 8-count footwork patterns, where MJ doesn't use any as such.
    • WCS requires suitable music to dance to, whereas MJ can be done to almost any music.
    • WCS is danced in a "slot" rather than MJ which can be danced in a slot, circle or a combination.

    I believe that WCS developed from Lindy Hop and other influences in the 40s and 50s.

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    Re: Forgive My Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    But what exactly is West Coast Swing and how long has it been popular? Is there a noticeable difference between the music?
    WCS has been around on the dance scene for at least 5 years. When I first learnt MJ, about 9 years ago, the hotshots would say, "MJ is all very well, but Lindy Hop is the real dance." Now they say this about WCS instead. It's a difficult dance to master and although there are quite a few places to learn it nationwide the UK scene seems quite slow-growing. Cat Wiles and Paul Warden are probably the top UK teachers, and some weekender organisers have brought over excellent teachers from the US. Many people dance both styles with WCS moves having a lot of influence over the way people now dance MJ.

    WCS has a distinctive and strict footwork pattern which requires a particular rhythm to dance it. MJ has a very simple stepping pattern which fits to a very wide range of music.

    Some tracks can be both MJ'd and WCS'd to. Some tracks you could MJ to but not WCS, and vice versa. WCS music is typically slower and more rhythmically complex than many classic MJ tracks. WCS music is often moody and bluesy, whereas MJ music gives more opportunities for exhilarating, anthemic and energetic dancing.

    WCS is considered a very subtle, interpretative and expressive dance which can communicate many nuances in the music. MJ is an easily-learnt simpler dance which can be expressive but also lends itself well to good-time yomping around.

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    Re: Forgive My Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    . Cat Wiles and Paul Warden are probably the top UK teachers, .


    also look out for Lindsay Brown

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    Re: Forgive My Ignorance

    WCS is the Modern Jive of the West Coast of America.
    Ceroc teaches Modern Jive London style.

    Both have since expanded to other regions.

    I started dancing Modern Jive about the same time as you, but the company I learnt with was not called Ceroc.

    Some WCS dancers dance a mean Ceroc/London MJ, some MJ London/Ceroc dancers dance a mean WCS.

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    Re: Forgive My Ignorance

    WCS is danced typically using 6 and 8 count footwork patterns. It is taught with a lot of thought concerning the music, its musical interpretation and musical phrasing.

    MJ / Ceroc is usually taught without any use of musical phrasing ie How to construct a dance where you dance over a 32 beat phrase and hit certain beats.

    To me its still rocket science, occassionally I will shock my partner as much as my self when hitting a certainly musical highlight.

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    Re: Forgive My Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Ceroc is the name of a company (that happens to teach a dance). Unless you work for Ceroc, you can't really say you are teaching Ceroc. Modern Jive is the generic term.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Modern Jive (MJ) is the style of dance, Ceroc is the name of a company that teaches Modern Jive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Ceroc teaches Modern Jive London style...........
    It is a pet annoyance of mine Modern Jive is THE dance - Ceroc is a Franchise that teaches it. It was originally called French Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    ........I started dancing Modern Jive about the same time as you, but the company I learnt with was not called Ceroc.....
    Me too and with the same company but about a year later than Martin


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    Re: Forgive My Ignorance

    Thanks to everyone for setting me straight.

    I know Ceroc is the Company and not the style, but after doing it for so long and only Ceroc it's all i know. So I tend to refer to what I do as Ceroc (indeed as do/did most of the people dancing when I started, though that might be how James wanted it). Is it a terrible sin?

    But I might give WCS a wide birth. I can't do footwork, I takes me twice as long to do triple step. I once went to one of Mike Ellard's classes (and though he singled me and my partner out as the best couple), once was enough

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    Re: Forgive My Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Thanks to everyone for setting me straight.

    I know Ceroc is the Company and not the style, but after doing it for so long and only Ceroc it's all i know. So I tend to refer to what I do as Ceroc (indeed as do/did most of the people dancing when I started, though that might be how James wanted it). Is it a terrible sin?
    Nah, lots of people still call it Ceroc and everyone still knows what they mean. It's only a name (although it does annoy me as much as it does Minnie sometimes when it's people who should know better ).
    People were doing it long before Ceroc was invented and it was totally improvised or copied from other people. My mum and her older brother used to enter Jiving competitions at the weekend before the film was shown at the local theatre/cinema. They certainly didn't have any lessons or "moves".

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    But I might give WCS a wide birth. I can't do footwork, I takes me twice as long to do triple step. I once went to one of Mike Ellard's classes (and though he singled me and my partner out as the best couple), once was enough
    Give it a go!

    I thought the same before I had a go at Lindy Hop, but it turns out it wasn't that hard after all and now I love it!

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    Re: Forgive My Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    I know Ceroc is the Company and not the style, but after doing it for so long and only Ceroc it's all i know. So I tend to refer to what I do as Ceroc (indeed as do/did most of the people dancing when I started, though that might be how James wanted it). Is it a terrible sin?
    In saying that, "Ceroc" does have a particular 'style' of MJ - due to limiting themselves to "The Beginner Moves" and "Classic Intermediate Moves". I can dance "Ceroc" (if I try really hard) but I tend to dance "Modern Jive"... or at least my version of it

    The intermediate class tends to try and expand the dancer's knowledge and teach them how to dance 'modern jive', but it is based on the 'ceroc' {as a dance} foundation.

    Other classes and organisations have different lists of 'beginner' moves and different criteria that you need {<- loose term} to know before advancing, but I don't think that they are as regimented as Ceroc. Within Ceroc I think that this is good because of consistency and a defined boundary between doing something as per the bible ("right") and doing a variation ("wrong"). But it can also be a bad thing because it stifles creativity and may limit you. Which is why it's very good for beginners, and intermediates can begin to expand their boundaries.

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    Re: Forgive My Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    Thanks to everyone for setting me straight.

    I know Ceroc is the Company and not the style, but after doing it for so long and only Ceroc it's all i know. So I tend to refer to what I do as Ceroc (indeed as do/did most of the people dancing when I started, though that might be how James wanted it). Is it a terrible sin
    Yes it is a terrible sin and you must whip your own back untill it bleads, thats what I do, but then again I'm into that sort of thing

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    Re: Forgive My Ignorance

    Cerocing, at a guess, is like hoovering. Even if U are using a dyson!!!

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    Re: Forgive My Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Cerocing, at a guess, is like hoovering. Even if U are using a dyson!!!
    spose so but what about the word Jive or Jiving............
    you would be surprised how many different partner dances are called "Jive"


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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