Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 55

Thread: Stop & search

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Stop & search

    I went shopping at Lidl 3 days ago. As I got to the cashier the girl behind me in the queue told the cashier she would be gone for just a few seconds. I got the impression that they knew each other and that she was an employee.

    When I got to the exit the security guy asked me if I would mind my shopping being searched. I realised that the girl behind me had made a false allegation, and I suspected it was because I had beaten her to the conveyor.

    I said, very loudly and very angrily that I would mind, and tried to leave. At this point he got in front of me and put his hand on my chest.

    AFIK He had no right whatsoever to touch me in any way, or to obstruct my passage.

    I believe that I had refused to be searched, and he should have let me leave. If he thought I had committed any crime he should have phoned the Police and followed me.

    On hearing my loud refusal to be searched and attempt to leave a second security guard rushed up. I had instantly stopped when pushed. I amd no agressive actions towards eith of them, and backed off.

    From 2 metres away I repeatedly asked them, in a very loud voice why I had been stopped, and what did they think I had stolen.

    They made no reply to this.

    I had gone through the checkout, but we were still inside the store. I am no lawyer. I believe that until a shop-lifter has left the premises no offence has been commited.

    I told them I had receipts for everything, and continued to ask them what they thought I had stolen. If they had said anything in the bag I woud have known where I bought it, how much I had paid, and shown them that receipt. I could have been out of there in two minutes.

    They took out everything on the Lidl's receipt. They were still left with half the contents of one of the "serious" big bags Lidl sells. (These are excellent value. I have a dozen or so of them, used for all sorts of purposes.) (not shoplifting)

    They only other things I had bought that looked like products Lidl sells were some DVD's (4 for 99p in our local 99p shop) (The other security guard got that wrong, Lidl does not sell that brand.)

    The first security guard got excited when he found a can of John West Tuna. I told him there should be another, (69p each from Wilkinsons) (I think much dearer in Lidl)

    With my big bag empty it began to dawn on them that I was innocent, and they put my shopping back into the bag, and mumbled "Sorry". I asked them three times, very loudly, to say that loud enough so that all the people queuing at the checkpoints could hear. They would not do that. I had been publicly accused and humiliated, they would not publicly clear me.

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Norfolk
    Posts
    1,324
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Stop & search

    My first reaction is,why,if you had nothing to hide did you not just go along with it.I dont think the shouting helped.
    If they let you go,they obviously got it wrong.End of.
    As for the customers.I dont suppose they gave a tinkers cuss,just another tale to tell their friends about.

  3. #3
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Stop & search

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    My first reaction is,why,if you had nothing to hide did you not just go along with it.
    Invasion of privacy.

    I believe you should speak to the police. A member of the public needs your permission before they can conduct a lawful search. The only person who can search you without your permission is a police officer. And that is only if you are under suspicion of committing an offence.

    Also, as the security guard physically stopped you from leaving the store you have also been unlawfully detained. Again, you need to speak with the police.

    Just give the police a call and ask their advice. My guess is that they will ask you if you will be satisfied by an officer visiting the store and reminding the staff about the law.

    To look at the other side of the coin. Somebody had reported you for theft. You refused to prove that you had not committed that theft. This makes you even more suspicious. However, the correct course of action for the store would have been to call the police.

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Norfolk
    Posts
    1,324
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Stop & search

    Andy I accept what you say is correct but I was commenting on the scenario presented.The people concerned were security so I would assume they have some authority wouldnt they?
    Having reread the post I think that Bigdjiver's reaction did not help the situation at all.The security were doing their job,yes in hindsight they should have called the police but I am pretty sure that they have the power to detain you until the police arrive and to have insisted the store went by the letter of the law would have just been an awful waste of Bigdjiver's time.If an apology is necessary take it up with the manager.

  5. #5
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Stop & search

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    When I got to the exit the security guy asked me if I would mind my shopping being searched. I realised that the girl behind me had made a false allegation, and I suspected it was because I had beaten her to the conveyor.

    I said, that I would mind, and tried to leave. At this point he got in front of me and put his hand on my chest.
    So, for some reason you were suspected of stealing, you didnt co-operate to defuse this false suspicion... in fact by your own admission you became aggressive and loud - of COURSE he is going to try to stop you leaving. Do you think you responded reasonably?

    On hearing my loud refusal to be searched and attempt to leave a second security guard rushed up. I had instantly stopped when pushed. I made no aggressive actions towards eith of them, and backed off.
    Hmm, well your "hand on the chest" has now become a "push" and your "very loudly and very angrily" is not, you think, an "aggressive action". This sounds like you are in the wrong and guilty of escalating a situation that could have been resolved with the minimum of fuss.

    I had been publicly accused and humiliated, they would not publicly clear me.
    Well, to be fair, it sounds like you were the one that was attracting attention, and you were probably one step away from getting the police called on you for creating such a disturbance. At least thats what you make it sound like.

  6. #6
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Stop & search

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Andy I accept what you say is correct but I was commenting on the scenario presented.The people concerned were security so I would assume they have some authority wouldnt they?
    The security are members of the public, not police they have no "authority" apart from acting for the owners of the property they allege was stolen by bigdj. If a member of the public believes that their goods have been stolen they need to report that theft to the police. A member of the public can make a citizens arrest if they have reasonable grounds to believe that there has been a theft. A member of the public must say that they are arresting you and can then, and only then, use reasonable force to detain a suspect. Of course you can then sue for false arrest if it turns out that the grounds for arrest were not reasonable.

    Security at Lidl should have received sufficient training and should know the above. These guys did not follow the correct procedure and should compensate bigdj for the distress they caused. An apology is probably insufficient compensation in the curcumstances.

    What you have to remember is the bigdj did absolutely nothing wrong and was illegally detained and searched without consent. It is security at Lidl who were entirely at fault. They did not see bigdj steal anything and were acting on heresay.

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Stop & search

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Invasion of privacy.

    I believe you should speak to the police. A member of the public needs your permission before they can conduct a lawful search. The only person who can search you without your permission is a police officer. And that is only if you are under suspicion of committing an offence.

    Also, as the security guard physically stopped you from leaving the store you have also been unlawfully detained. Again, you need to speak with the police.

    Just give the police a call and ask their advice. My guess is that they will ask you if you will be satisfied by an officer visiting the store and reminding the staff about the law.
    Good advice. That was my next move.

    ...To look at the other side of the coin. Somebody had reported you for theft. You refused to prove that you had not committed that theft. This makes you even more suspicious. However, the correct course of action for the store would have been to call the police.
    Theft of what? My best guess is that they had spotted the tuna in my bag. If they had answered my repeated questions about what I was supposed to have stolen I would instantly told then I bought it from Wilkinsons, two cans at 69p and shown them the receipt. They went through everything I had bought previously before they settled on those.

    BTW I missed half the night at Luton as a result of this.

  8. #8
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Stop & search

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Well, to be fair, it sounds like you were the one that was attracting attention, and you were probably one step away from getting the police called on you for creating such a disturbance. At least thats what you make it sound like.
    There was an assault in progress. What you need to do when being assaulted it to get the attention of those nearby. As soon as guy from security laid a hand on bigdj he was committing an assault. In those circumstances you can use reasonable force to defend yourself. If all bigdj did was stop and shout when assaulted it sounds like he under-reacted.

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Stop & search

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Andy I accept what you say is correct but I was commenting on the scenario presented.The people concerned were security so I would assume they have some authority wouldnt they?
    Having reread the post I think that Bigdjiver's reaction did not help the situation at all.The security were doing their job,yes in hindsight they should have called the police but I am pretty sure that they have the power to detain you until the police arrive and to have insisted the store went by the letter of the law would have just been an awful waste of Bigdjiver's time.If an apology is necessary take it up with the manager.
    An apology is not enough. IMO They should not have stopped me without reason, and I was entitled to know what that reason was.

  10. #10
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Stop & search

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Theft of what? My best guess is that they had spotted the tuna in my bag. If they had answered my repeated questions about what I was supposed to have stolen I would instantly told then I bought it from Wilkinsons, two cans at 69p and shown them the receipt. They went through everything I had bought previously before they settled on those.
    If your guess is that the customer behind you reported the theft this may not have been the case.

  11. #11
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Stop & search

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Good advice. That was my next move.
    What did the police say? My guess is that as nobody was injured in the assault they are unlikely to act.

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    290
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: Stop & search

    I've heard that before a security guard can stop someone they should have observed all of the following:

    Selection of an item
    Concealment of the item
    Observation of the shoplifter continually, from the point of witnessing the above two acts
    Non-payment for the item
    Exit from the shop

    Remember it as SCONE!

    In your case it sounds like they didn't have any of these. You did the right thing by continually asking them what it was they suspected you of stealing.

    The way I would handle this:
    1. Keep calm
    2. Ask lots of questions, they won't like this because your ignorance is their power
    3. Note down their ID card details, this will unnerve them as you are clearly gathering evidence for a complaint
    4. They don't have any more rights than you or I so the only thing they can do is make a citizens arrest, if you don't move they won't have any legitimate reason to touch you
    5. Insist that they call the police, when it is found that you're innocent they'll soon be cut down to size, keep an eye on your bags though in case they try and plant something
    6. Don't attempt to leave the shop, they may feel this is sufficient grounds to restrain you
    7. Don't let them touch you or search you or your bags, only the police can do that. The police might take ages to turn up. Having their suspect close to the door could be a significant inconvenience to them, don't let them drag you off to some office at the back of the shop, they don't have the right to do that.
    8. If they attempt to search you or your bags, repeatedly inform them that you do not consent and that they are acting unlawfully.
    9. If they don't seem to know what you've stolen, protest that this demonstrates they have absolutely no evidence of any wrong doing. As people exit the store tell them that the idiot security guards haven't a clue and are acting without any evidence and are unlawfully trying to search you. They'll soon start to feel the burn of self consciousness.
    10. Look around for security cameras, stand in front of one and tell the security guards that you are doing this so that everything they do is recorded
    11. Watch them squirm when the police turn up for nothing
    12. Find a no win no fee lawyer and sue them

  13. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Norfolk
    Posts
    1,324
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Stop & search

    Lets hope that your security do's and dont's,can and cannot's dont extend to the civilian security at airports

  14. #14
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Stop & search

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Lets hope that your security do's and dont's,can and cannot's dont extend to the civilian security at airports
    They do apply at airports. Airport security are well trained civilians. You have to consent to being searched by airport security. You can withold your consent and they can not search you by force. If you do not consent you are not allowed on the flight. Of course, failure to consent will bring you to the attention of the police who might regard that as grounds to suspect you are a terrorist - as soon as that happens it's no holds barred and the rubber gloves come out

  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    East Kilbride, Sco
    Posts
    903
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Stop & search

    Where's Baryshnikov when you need him (",)

  16. #16
    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    r=1-sin(wt)
    Posts
    1,301
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Stop & search

    You're quite right, normal security guards have no right to search or restrain you unless they are sure (beyond reasonable doubt) that you have committed an offence.

    What they can do is escort you from the premises and permanently ban you from all branches of that shop - and possibly the whole shopping centre. You have no legal right to enter their or any other retailers' premises.

    You might take the view that they'll never know who you are, but if you paid by card they will attempt to find the relevant receipt and detect if that number is ever used again at their tills. (One of the most boring jobs I had in my uni holidays!)

    If you feel strongly enough you can go to Judicial Review to overturn the ban, but that'll cost you a fortune.

  17. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Waltham Abbey
    Posts
    5,534
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Stop & search

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    The security were doing their job
    Actually, they weren't.

    As a member of the SIA I can assure you that it is completely unacceptable for any security officer to physically obstruct a member of the public.

    I would at the very least find out which security contractor have the contract for the Lidl you visited and report the contractor to the SIA.

  18. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Norfolk
    Posts
    1,324
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Stop & search

    Ok.Point taken,but I still maintain that the attitude that Bigdjiver took did not help the situation and probably did more to exacerbate the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DT View Post
    As a member of the SIA I can assure you that it is completely unacceptable for any security officer to physically obstruct a member of the public.
    Just as a matter of interest how does this effect doorstaff/bouncers.They seem to ask the questions after the physical assault.
    Last edited by DavidY; 9th-January-2010 at 10:04 PM. Reason: Fixing quote

  19. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Stop & search

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Ok.Point taken,but I still maintain that the attitude that Bigdjiver took did not help the situation and probably did more to exacerbate the situation. ...
    Losing ones temper seldom helps. However I knew I was being falsly publicly accused (the long checkout queue were all gazing in my direction) without a valid reason, and my first perception was there may have been malice involved from another staff member. I was also in a hurry to prepare for dancing. I do not suffer incompetence gladly. Its a weakness.

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Waltham Abbey
    Posts
    5,534
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Stop & search

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Just as a matter of interest how does this effect doorstaff/bouncers.

    It doesn't. They have no greater power than your average security guard.

    As they deal with more aggressive situations in pubs and clubs they can use and/or abuse their "self defence" card more easily.

    The majority of security guards do not seek to inflame aggressive situations and are trained in conflict management. Of course, with most things, the occasional bad apple sneaks in.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. How do I search for a file type?
    By jivecat in forum Geeks' Corner
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 21st-April-2009, 10:17 PM
  2. Search engine...
    By David Bailey in forum Geeks' Corner
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 27th-April-2005, 08:55 AM
  3. Search Engine
    By DavidY in forum Forum technical problems / Questions / Suggestions..
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 27th-April-2003, 11:01 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •