Dancing with beginners

[Andy McGregor]

Me too, you'd have to hit me over the head to tell me if a woman was interested in me. Same goes for most men I suspect.

The worst part is the retrospective crushing embarassment and angst about missed opportunities when you break the "woman code" and work out that they were saying "I fancy you, all you have to do is ask"

Even when you think you understand there's still parts of the woman code that require an ENIGMA machine.

And girls, before you say "that's what makes us so interesting" in that enigmatic way, remember that it's both of us that's not getting any. The difference is that us guys didn't even know there was "any" to be got.

[Martin]

women throwing pussy at them left, right and centre.....simply because they are really good dancers.

Now that is a very good reason to learn to dance.

Fortunately I can dance well... bring on the pussy

[Andy McGregor]

Fortunately I can dance well... bring on the pussy

It's still working on my leg

[Gav]

It's still working on my leg

Not you as well!

I thought frotting was limited to a certain individual.

[Andy McGregor]

I thought frotting was limited to a certain individual.

But any leg

[Neu Wien]

I've always found that leader beginners seem not to be enjoying dancing. I've recently started trying to learn to lead myself and I've now realised why this is...you have to actually think about what you're doing! Us follows have got it so easy, we just have to, well, follow.

I have a new respect for anyone learning to lead in a new dance and having tried it for myself, I'm surprised more people don't give up after a few weeks. I'm struggling to put together 4 beginners moves, the thought of learning anything more complicated fills me with dread!

Well I like challenges and learning new things, so having to think while learning to dance was kind of expected! It does get more enjoyable once you can effortlessly revert to doing random combinations of beginner moves though, and only have to think when you want to do a new/more challenging move, or time something to a particular part of the music.

[Prian]

Thanks for the thread Baruch. Been looking for a thread like this or to start one similar.

Ceroc (I will mention and stick to Ceroc because that is all I know about. Other classes may do things differently), was started to teach people how to dance. It is, or it was, all about the beginner. Withouth the beginner Ceroc is pointless. These are not just my views, these are the sentiments of the man that started it. Indeed he was against the idea of even having champs because it meant that in the weeks leading up to the event, the beginners were danced with less. The Ceroc Taxis were begun mainly because when the intermediate class started all the beginners went home thinking the class was over for them. The Taxi review class was something for the beginners to do during the other class.

Probably no beginner would ever progress to intermediate if it wasn't for better dancers dancing with them. Far too many intermediates forget that they were beginners. I once saw an intermediate (or at least she thought she was), ask a beginner to dance during beginners freestyle and halfway through the song tell him he wasn't good enough and she walked off. I got her back later on his behalf.

Ceroc does tell beginners that after 6 classes they can progress. I am not sure this myself. Of course every person develops at a different rate, but I think the Taxis should have more input here. An awful lot of people think that they are ready to be intermediates while not being good enough beginners, and subsequently even after years are not good intermediates. IMHO no-one, especially the men/leads should progress until they can do all the official beginners with their eyes closed (which used to be taught), or at least without thinking. I myself took 6 months before progressing and that was not by design. Though this was due to my confidence not my ability. There was also no such thing as Taxis to advise me. As I said Taxis should do more in suggesting when people are ready for intermediates especially the men/leads.

[Baruch]

Nobody is too good to dance with beginners. That said, however, it's good to dance with the better dancers as well. A venue populated mostly by beginners wouldn't really appeal to me, as I like some variety in a dance night.

I agree that many people move up to intermediates far too soon, before they have a proper grounding in the dance. However, most venues don't seem to have the will to do anything about it, so I just keep my mouth shut on the subject these days.

[Prian]

As I said one can only improve by dancing with better people. In fact I think my dancing suffered from being a Taxi (though I would do it again).

One Ceroc Guru (Viktor), once told me, when I asked him what an intermediate should say to a beginner when asked how good they are. "I am only as good as the person I am dancing with."

[Lost Leader]

I have a new respect for anyone learning to lead in a new dance and having tried it for myself, I'm surprised more people don't give up after a few weeks. I'm struggling to put together 4 beginners moves, the thought of learning anything more complicated fills me with dread!

Welcome to my world (as long as you make that just 3 beginner moves).

Actually, to be slightly more serious (possibly) you are so damn right DT. This dancing lark is blinkin' difficult. We men deserve more respect, ain't that right girls?

(Ducks for cover)

[Glenn]

Probably no beginner would ever progress to intermediate if it wasn't for better dancers dancing with them. Far too many intermediates forget that they were beginners. I once saw an intermediate (or at least she thought she was), ask a beginner to dance during beginners freestyle and halfway through the song tell him he wasn't good enough and she walked off. I got her back later on his behalf.

Very true Prian, I remember vividly what it was like...only 8 months ago, I always do the beginners..
1. I like it as a warm up.. and dont have to think TOO hard
2. As you say, we were all there once, and benefitted from more
experienced people, so give something back.
3.You may unearth a gem of a lead/follow who will hopefully remember you
months ahead.

ps How did you get her back

Ceroc does tell beginners that after 6 classes they can progress. I am not sure this myself. Of course every person develops at a different rate, but I think the Taxis should have more input here. An awful lot of people think that they are ready to be intermediates while not being good enough beginners, and subsequently even after years are not good intermediates. IMHO no-one, especially the men/leads should progress until they can do all the official beginners with their eyes closed (which used to be taught), or at least without thinking. I myself took 6 months before progressing and that was not by design. Though this was due to my confidence not my ability. There was also no such thing as Taxis to advise me. As I said Taxis should do more in suggesting when people are ready for intermediates especially the men/leads.

Interesting points there, I think definitely down the the individual ... i didn't feel capable after 6 weeks thats for sure; and after I did start the Inters, it's like back to basics and a whole new learning curve.
I think women, sorry follows.. progress much quicker, having gained a lot from dancing with more experienced leads.
My experience from the start goes something like..
For first 3 weeks...panic..couldnt remember moves.. about 6 weeks when I did great... a beginners course helped...another 3 weeks and tried an Intermediate course.. arggh panic, can't remember all the moves, when starting from the top.

I didn't realise there were sooo many facets to dancing either..
1. started with learning moves, and quickly realised..
2. umm i needed to have rythm with them
3. needed to take my time, not whizz thru moves while i could still
remember in my head which ones i wanted to do for that dance.
4. creating a connection with your current dancing partner..
5. Appearing to know exactly what you are doing, even tho you may have
just made a move up
6. Bloody hell she expects me to chat as well

Now thankfully it flows a lot better.. and i can chat a bit during a dance ...
Lots of things to improve upon;
Would love to be able to pull moves out of the bag that suit the particular track better.
Dance more fluidly instead of appearing to do 1 move then the next, with the obvious move separation points (if you know what i mean).
My styling needs lots of work too, need to make a note not to be afraid to be more indiviualistic, and I think the last bit will help for a lot better dance connection.

What was the thread about again before i rambled

[Prian]

ps How did you get her back

I danced with her (she was definitely not good enough to be telling beginners how good they were), and at the end of the dance I asked her how long she had been dancing. She told me about two and a half months (I had been going about 8/9 years). I told her that she would do well to do some more beginners classes. Bit naughty of me I know.

[cederic]

I was a beginner once, I still remember the kind ladies who asked me to dance my 4 moves with them, and smiled at me in return and thanked me for the dance.

It is the same when joining any new club. Those who are kind to you when you first join, you remember for a long time. A beginner is someone coming into that established club, feeling a bit out of it, looking for anyone to show friendship.

It is not just about the dance, it is about showing acceptance and making people feel welcome.

Agreed completely, that welcoming approach is a big factor.

I'm not ashamed to admit there's also a small ego boost. I'm not a good dancer, so it's nice to be able to lead the beginner moves on someone that's struggling with them, throw in a couple of other beginner moves they haven't even tried yet (but can follow) and maybe even the odd easily followed intermediate move. Beginners are easy to impress!

But there's a third reason, more subtle than that:

I realised that dancing with beginners, I don't lead a Yoyo properly. I don't block very well, so beginner followers go sailing past in their turn.

Good following, that I don't get from the more experienced dancers who know how to follow a yoyo. Bad leading, indicating bad leading technique and a clear need for me to improve.

Last night I found this:

You learn how to dance better by dancing with more experienced partners. But you learn how to lead/follow better by dancing with less experienced partners. Your skills are put much more to the test dancing with a beginner than with an experienced dancer. It is easy to lead/follow a great dancer. All your weaknesses as a leader/follower show up with beginners.

(from http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/beginners.html)

Online validation of what I'd discovered. It must be right!

Benefits all round, but Martin's point would keep me offering even without the others.

[Prian]

I I was a beginner once, I still remember the kind ladies who asked me to dance my 4 moves with them, and smiled at me in return and thanked me for the dance. .

Not exactly the same, but I remember a lady by the name of Kate. She was a teacher and demo when I started and still one of the best Cerocers that I have seen. As a result I was very intimidated by her and it took me 6 years to ask her for a dance. we had 3 dances that evening. The second and third she asked me for and she asked me to teach her a move that I performed (recurring pretzel, which I now cannot remember how to do ).

It just goes to show.

[melissas]

I'll dance with anyone as long as they are polite.

[Steven666]

70% prefer not to seek to dance with beginners. Oh dear...

[Andy McGregor]

70% prefer not to seek to dance with beginners. Oh dear...

I don't think we can come to that conclusion from this survey. However, if it were true it is quite understandable. Most experienced dancers would like to dance in the freestyle, not instruct beginners.

Speaking personally, as a teacher I love teaching and am delighted to dance with beginners at my own classes. However, I try to avoid instructing at other people's classes. The venue operator would get annoyed and I would be giving something for free that I normally get paid to do.

[David Bailey]

I don't think we can come to that conclusion from this survey.

Mainly because the questions are too narrowly-phrased.

There's no option for "I'm happy to dance with everyone", for example.

[AmLiBr1803]

Beginners, I would see as those who are still finding thier feet (or looking for thier right foot). I was a beginner once, I still remember the kind ladies who asked me to dance my 4 moves with them, and smiled at me in return and thanked me for the dance.

It is the same when joining any new club. Those who are kind to you when you first join, you remember for a long time. A beginner is someone coming into that established club, feeling a bit out of it, looking for anyone to show friendship.

It is not just about the dance, it is about showing acceptance and making people feel welcome.

Well said! Last Monday was my first night, and I had such a great time. I had the chance to dance several times in the freestyle. I am so glad they all asked me to dance, because I learned a little bit from each of them.