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Thread: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

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    Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    Now we’ve had ‘climate-gate’ should anything change and will anything change?

    According to the climate change sceptics there is more than a whiff of suspicion and collusion to be found in some of the hacked and leaked emails.

    I’ve been sceptical for a few years on account of the fact that:
    1. all the reports seem so over-egged. In the space of around 10-15 years it feels like we’ve gone from almost no concern to doomsday predictions.
    2. we’re way past the point where the science of climate change can be challenged and discussed rationally. I don’t think that’s a good place to be.
    3 it’s a highly effective method of raising taxes while appearing sincere and well meaning.
    4. if climate change was not considered a ‘threat’ most of the researchers would lose their government funding, and with it, their jobs.

    When you consider that ‘a lie told often enough becomes the truth’, have we all been had?

    I know I’ll get replies from people who say ‘just trust the scientists, they know what they’re doing’, however, I’m not prepared to just swallow everything I’m fed. There are some issues that need to be cleared up by the authors of the leaked emails. As far as I'm aware they haven’t yet done so.

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    Now we’ve had ‘climate-gate’ should anything change and will anything change?

    According to the climate change sceptics there is more than a whiff of suspicion and collusion to be found in some of the hacked and leaked emails.

    I’ve been sceptical for a few years on account of the fact that:
    1. all the reports seem so over-egged. In the space of around 10-15 years it feels like we’ve gone from almost no concern to doomsday predictions.
    2. we’re way past the point where the science of climate change can be challenged and discussed rationally. I don’t think that’s a good place to be.
    3 it’s a highly effective method of raising taxes while appearing sincere and well meaning.
    4. if climate change was not considered a ‘threat’ most of the researchers would lose their government funding, and with it, their jobs.

    When you consider that ‘a lie told often enough becomes the truth’, have we all been had?

    I know I’ll get replies from people who say ‘just trust the scientists, they know what they’re doing’, however, I’m not prepared to just swallow everything I’m fed. There are some issues that need to be cleared up by the authors of the leaked emails. As far as I'm aware they haven’t yet done so.
    I take a different view based on several factors.

    We are seeing weather patterns that are different. e.g. Flooding in the UK is happening at greater frequency than would be predicted from historical trends; mountain tops have less snow on them now than in the past. There really is evidence at such an easy to spot level. Changes are visible at a rate that, to me, appears very rapid. Something really is happening. Is it climate change as put forward by most scientists?

    There can be a tendency to disbelieve official sources as being institutionally corrupt whilst also having a tendency to believe fringe stuff. I mistrust fringe propaganda more than I mistrust governments and senior scientists in universities.

    The greenhouse effect is a scientific fact. It is why greenhouses work. Now it may be that the greenhouse gases are not so effective as theory predicts at trapping heat so the greenhouse gas effect is not by itself going to cause a problem. It is highly possible that polluting the atmosphere will lead to environmental catastophe. Maybe it won't. Most climate change scientists believe it will. So, what is the rational course to take? We could carry on polluting our world as an ultimate experiment and then, if the answer is a catastrophe, it will be too late to go back. Or we could play it safe, recognise that the majority scientific opinion is that we are heading for trouble, and do what we can to pull back from potential environmental disaster.

    Fossil fuels are running out anyway. Money put into alternative energy sources would seem money well spent even if climate change theory is wrong.

    The groups that are using hacked emails to challenge the overall theory are simply doing what I would do if I was in a weak position and wanted to carry out a political negotiation. I would look for my opponents' weakest points and try to make those as high profile as possible whilst downplaying the best evidence supporting their position. If you want a conspiracy theory why not look at energy businesses and try to make links between them and those who argue against climate change?

    It took a long time for scientific eveidence to win the day over big business over the link between smoking and lung cancer. Maybe we are seeing a repeat of something like that rather than a world wide conspiracy between governments and climate change scientists.

    Hopefully you think my post is rational even though you will probably disagree with me as I disagree with you.

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    Now we’ve had ‘climate-gate’ should anything change and will anything change?

    According to the climate change sceptics there is more than a whiff of suspicion and collusion to be found in some of the hacked and leaked emails.

    I’ve been sceptical for a few years on account of the fact that:
    1. all the reports seem so over-egged. In the space of around 10-15 years it feels like we’ve gone from almost no concern to doomsday predictions.
    2. we’re way past the point where the science of climate change can be challenged and discussed rationally. I don’t think that’s a good place to be.
    3 it’s a highly effective method of raising taxes while appearing sincere and well meaning.
    4. if climate change was not considered a ‘threat’ most of the researchers would lose their government funding, and with it, their jobs.

    When you consider that ‘a lie told often enough becomes the truth’, have we all been had?

    I know I’ll get replies from people who say ‘just trust the scientists, they know what they’re doing’, however, I’m not prepared to just swallow everything I’m fed. There are some issues that need to be cleared up by the authors of the leaked emails. As far as I'm aware they haven’t yet done so.
    http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-re...4-wg1-faqs.pdf

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    Now we’ve had ‘climate-gate’ should anything change and will anything change?

    According to the climate change sceptics there is more than a whiff of suspicion and collusion to be found in some of the hacked and leaked emails.

    I’ve been sceptical for a few years on account of the fact that:
    1. all the reports seem so over-egged. In the space of around 10-15 years it feels like we’ve gone from almost no concern to doomsday predictions.
    2. we’re way past the point where the science of climate change can be challenged and discussed rationally. I don’t think that’s a good place to be.
    3 it’s a highly effective method of raising taxes while appearing sincere and well meaning.
    4. if climate change was not considered a ‘threat’ most of the researchers would lose their government funding, and with it, their jobs.

    When you consider that ‘a lie told often enough becomes the truth’, have we all been had?

    I know I’ll get replies from people who say ‘just trust the scientists, they know what they’re doing’, however, I’m not prepared to just swallow everything I’m fed. There are some issues that need to be cleared up by the authors of the leaked emails. As far as I'm aware they haven’t yet done so.
    It's a big lie, C02 is not the cause of global warming the sun is.

    Global Warming - The Truth
    Part 1 -
    Part 2 -
    Part 3 -
    Part 4 -
    Part 5 -

    Carbon Taxes are a great way for world governments to raise new forms of revenue. 100s of new carbon taxes are to be introduced into the USA.

    The Carbon Tax Deception

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    I’m not prepared to just swallow everything I’m fed.
    Which is fair enough, but I know from the evidence of my own experience that winters are a lot warmer than they were when I was growing up. I remember deep snowdrifts, sledging etc. at several times in my youth. Something's making the weather warmer.

    My question to the sceptics is this - imagine for a moment that it was true that CO2 causes global climate change. What do you think would be different to what's happening now...?
    Love dance, will travel

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    the two things that make me wonder whether climate change is down to co2 are
    1 surely if the governments of this world really beileve that why do they continually fly round the world to talk about it instead of using video links etc
    2 why 20 yrs ago were they all worrying about global cooling

    my thoughts on this are that its a great way or raising taxes without everyone getting up in arms about it and the media really loves anything that makes a good news story

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    The extremists either think it's too late to do anything or don't think there is a problem.
    Those in the middle think measures, if taken, can prolong human habitation on this planet.

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    It seems to me that a warmer world will make Alaska, Canada and Siberia more fertile, and maybe Antartica habitable. More and warmer sea will make more fish to eat. The advances in automation will make building easier. Increased CO2 will also encourage plant groth. The real problem the human race will face is how people can move from place to place without killing each other.

    We should be able to build giant solar panels orbiting in space to harvest energy and act as sunshades which may help save current habitable areas.

    An opportunity, rather than a problem?

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    This all makes me lol, first how much oil will be left in the Earth when people decide to stop taking it out, that's right, zero, what can be got out will be got out, they aint going to leave any behind, so the CO2 levels WILL RISE, also where did all this CO2 come from in the first place, er thats right the atmosphere, so my V8 turbo nutter bas**ard is actually carbon neutral, you just have to take a long term view that's all, in short its all a waste of time the oil will all get used up, I believe the Earths temperature will rise in response, the Worlds population levels are based on cheap fossil fuels for production and distribution, peak oil has in my opinion just about happened, I believe we will all be living in interesting times and it will be happening very soon
    Nick

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    The main thing i find that puts the whole C02 and cars as the cause of 'Climate change' into question is that all of this is based on 'since records began' . Which doesn't work when the records only go back 200 years at most and even then they aren't the best some of the records are peoples reports in news papers of "It was cold on Tuesday 1785" etc lol.

    Where as the planet has been around for 4 billion years, had a few ice ages (average of every 100,000 years), rain and forests in the Sahara desert and yet 200 years of records disproves all of this?

    Then you also have the science that if Co2 is the cause then what about the volcanos that put out a lot more than cars can. (See the super volcano that erupt every 60,000 years on average)
    They actually cause a decrease in world temperature over the short-term (ash clouds etc) and cause acid rain due to the sulphur. but increase Co2 for years / 100s of years after.

    There is also a lot of science that says we aren't the cause, as said above the sun has a much larger impact on the planet than people want to hear. Reason being that the governments can't change / charge that so why point it out.
    (See NASA etc for sun weather systems)

    You then have the moon and it's gravity to take into account, as that is the very reason we have waves in the first place. It is slowly (about 1inch a year) moving away from the planet and therefore changing it's effect on the wave formations etc.

    Lastly you then have the fact that scientists don't know what will happen if all the ice melts. some think it will cool the planet back down and cause the ice to refreeze (increase cloud cover to increase the amount of sun light reflected back into space) or others think that it will increase the temperature (increased cloud cover will keep more heat in).
    One of the thing that science does know is that the world will not become flooded due to all the ice melting (think ice cubes in a cup).

    Then you have the fact that the poles to change direction every few 1000 years. (2012 is not a good film to use though). This does happen and does cause a decrease in the magnetic field of the planet and therefore letting more solar radiation into the planet (which it the very warmth we feel to be here in the first place).

    If you read all the papers on climate change there is one thing that most agree on is that it's changing. Isn't that they way the planet has been for millions of years. i.e it gets hotter, then colder, then hotter. It's a global weather system. Ice ages are a norm for the planet and we are still coming out of the last one. This is were people sometimes forget that humans only came out of Africa about 50,000 years ago. We haven't has 'science' for long enough to class ourselves as intelligent enough to know all the variables that might change the worlds temperature.

    Although i would like to point out that I also agree that if we can make better cars / machines that need less fuel and therefore less CO2 then good going, why not. As currently we only get about 20% of the energy in oil out the other 80% being wasted in heat etc.

    But to use fear and guess work as facts is only doomed to questioning and failure. Mainly when questioning the 'facts' is looked down on .



    (sorry for any spelling / grammar mistakes :-) )

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    Quote Originally Posted by knightengale View Post
    The main thing i find that puts the whole C02 and cars as the cause of 'Climate change' into question is that all of this is based on 'since records began'.
    CO2 and climate data goes back several million years. The best source of this sort of data is layered ice - such as places like the Antarctic. By taking core samples of ice, they can relatively easily estimate things like average annual temperature and CO2 levels. Ironically, it's the same sort of data they use to figure out things like major meteorite strikes and major volcanic eruptions. You seem to accept that we see a major event every 60,000 years, without realising that the climate science knows this - and use the same data to draw their conclusions.

    When it comes to the scientific debate, the simple reality is almost all climate scientists agree that global warming is happening and is caused by human actions. This belief is founded on very strong evidence. A small minority of scientists disagree with the conclusions (and that disagreement is primarily about the cause of global warming, not the fact of it). The vast majority of scientists who disagree with this view do not study the climate.

    Unfortunately, the media requires contention for there to be news. Hence they report the climate change issue equally from both sides - and call it "balance". If you look at the real data, and pay attention to who is saying what, it's not very balanced at all. The evidence almost entirely falls on one side. But reporting that is not good news.

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    The latest debacle involving leaked documents from Prof Phil Jones of the climatic research centre at the University of East Anglia appears to be just the tip of the melting iceberg that is the fraud that revolves around the claims concerning the so called effect of man made climate change.

    There is no question that the Earth is warming up. But the reasons for why this is happening are far from clear. Of course that is NOT what you have been lead to believe because there are a whole hosts of ‘experts’ out there who claim they understand the problems and know the answers. I don’t doubt that there is real concern over this, but if you step back a moment you can see that there are many other factors having a bearing on what we are being told; there is also a mountain of information that contradicts these popular viewpoints. The reality is that the environment is an incredibly lucrative field to be involved in these days with billions of dollars changing hands in an apparent attempt to resolve these issues. This has lead to the creation of a myriad of new businesses that feed off this cash cow – and let’s not forget the political behemoth that whirrs away underneath it all. So, on the one hand you have Big Business and its need to maintain the status quo, and it does this by exerting its influence by using commercial and political pressure. You then have Governments riding the wave of public opinion to create ‘popular’ policies - and then, as an aside, also providing massive financial incentives through grants and subsidies to placate those with vested financial interests. And underneath it all the environmentalists and research scientists who have created a propaganda machine who either intentionally, or unintentionally, are misrepresenting the truth.

    You can see this in operation in Al Gore’s film ‘An Inconvenient Truth’. Yes, it’s a thought provoking film on the environment, but it’s also been proven to be full of ‘mistakes’ (if you are a cynic you can read ‘lies’ here..) Many supporters would say, ‘Ah, yes, but that doesn’t take away from the main premise of the film..’ But it does. If Mr. Gore can’t motivate us without telling us lies and without politicizing scientific ‘truth’ what does that actually say about the main premise of the film? Nothing, obviously, because the film went on to win two Oscars and Al Gore himself and his team were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his work on climate change. It’s a crazy World alright…

    The fact of the matter is that recent research suggests that Humanity’s contribution to Global warming is negligible. There is a hole in the ozone layer that undoubtedly was exacerbated by the use of fluorocarbons and there is a greater amount of man made carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. But their affects do not appear to be the main driver of climate change. The Earth’s climate has been fluctuating for billion’s of years which has resulted in hot spells, flooding, ice ages and all of the dramatic weather and climate changes associated with these factors. And the vast majority of these occurred when the spark of Humanity was not even a glint in Nature’s all seeing eye. In recent research by teams across the globe that include climatologists, physicists, geophysicists and astrophysicists proof has been established of a link between cosmic rays (in the form of muons) and their effect on low lying cloud. All of these effects are governed by the Sun’s movement through the spiral arms of our Galaxy and are also linked to fluctuations in the Sun’s magnetic field, Sun spot activity and the generation of the solar wind. Put very simply, it would appear that the temperature of the planet is most closely governed by the formation of cloud that is closest to the Earth. This low lying cloud acts as a shield, so that the more of this type of cloud there is, the cooler the planet becomes. These low lying clouds (typically lower than 3,000 ft in the form of stratocumulus) scatter back into space around half of the incoming sunshine and account for about 60% of total Global cooling. And what is most important, is that their formation is NOT due to ‘local’ changes in green house gases. Instead the seeding of clouds and how they cluster particles together is governed by the effect of Cosmic rays penetrating the atmosphere. What is therefore evident is that within the last 100 years, cosmic activity has been low, which in turn has resulted in fewer low lying clouds and in an overall increase in Global temperatures.

    As supernovas are the main producers of cosmic rays their activity can be charted. The effect of these rays are then governed by the Sun’s transition through the galaxy and protective effect of its magnetic field and resulting solar wind – all of which fluctuates, and all of which can also be charted with evidence from ice core samples, sea bed samples, meteorites and chalk and fossil deposits. In varying measures these reveal the effects of cosmic and solar activity by the changes in production of carbon-14 and carbon-13 and in the presence of beryllium-10, oxygen-18, chlorine-16 and iron-60. What this means is that the computer models that use the production of local greenhouse gases and their effects to forecast future climate change are wrong – and not only wrong, but wrong by a massive amount. A doubling of man made carbon dioxide will therefore not produce the average increase in Global temperatures of around 3%-4% most often reported, but instead are likely to increase temperatures by an average of only 1%.

    A large amount of this research has been pioneered by Danish scientist called Henrick Svensmark in collaboration with an Israeli astrophysicist called Nir Shaviv. And how do you think the scientific community reacted when Svensmark first proposed the theory in the late ‘90’s? As you would expect, they reacted with venom. He was called dangerous, misguided, naïve and irresponsible. And this not only resulted in him being ostracized by the most of the ‘experts’ on climate change but it also resulted in the restriction of his ability to gain funding. It’s an all too familiar story.. Thankfully his research has continued and the concept of cosmoclimatology is starting to capture people’s attention. This has resulted in the creation of the CLOUD facility of the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) in Geneva – a consortium that now comprises over 50 experts from seventeen institutions across the globe. And there is no doubt in my mind that we will in the future owe Henrick Svensmark and the CLOUD consortium a huge debt of gratitude. Thankfully there are still some courageous and gifted scientists who are prepared to swim against the tide…

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    The only climate change sceptic I have time for is Bjorn Lumborg, and that is only because and only to the extent that he has tried to say 'Look, maybe the best way to spend the money is not to throw everything at avoiding climate change, but to consider spending a large portion of it on coping with climate change.'

    He made the point ten years ago that spending $trillions on making a marginal difference to the amount of overall warming, of 2º or 3º, seems a bit - futile.

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    ....
    I agree a bit , as the CO2 in the ice layers does give some information. but doesn't give all the facts of the planet at these times. ice from 1 million years ago will give you the CO2 level, but not a full weather pattern of the time. Grant it's worth taking into account, but not enough to be used as fact. Actual daily weather records are only 200 years worth anything after that is very patchy

    Also Ice layers are great for the 1 million years to 3 billion years (ish) level of information. Anything before of after this time is ether too early for the ice layers to be thick enough or to far back for
    I agree very with that global warming / climent change is happening, although that we are the cause i very much disagree with.
    It's like saying there was zero change before humans came along. The planet has been changing for alot longer than humans have been on teh planet and will continue to change with or without us here.

    As most siencets actually disagree with the conclusions.. i.e Sicentest still work in theories and possible outcomes with differnent level of possible outcomes being writing. It's then the media that the worstcase as to be facts to sell papers etc

    I agree in part that evidence does fall in teh part that the climate is changing but not on the part that proves 100% that we are the main cause or a cause at all. There is alot more information we as a race do not have and will not be able to have for sure.

    You then have the fact if the world really wanted to change peoples habits, then they would / could have given each person in the uk some cash help to change tehre car etc. Rather than make money out of it. If it was such and 'end is near' time thing then why make money out of it rather than change it. The goverments of the world were very fast in handing out money to the banks and that wasn't really that important compaired to 'end is near' type events....

    Granted all this is my view on what i have heard and read (excluding news sites / TV programs as they are always going to side with the 'popular' / 'allow' view.
    Last edited by knightengale; 8th-December-2009 at 02:54 PM.

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    Registered User knightengale's Avatar
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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ...
    I couldnt have put it better if i tried. I'll look up those people as they sound interesting

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    Quote Originally Posted by knightengale View Post
    I couldnt have put it better if i tried. I'll look up those people as they sound interesting
    You actually read all that?

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    You actually read all that?
    Yeah, started reading it and it was well written. So ended up reading the lot.

    I also thought i'd written alot in one post, but you win that prize lol.

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    The weather changes over time. I once heard that more carbon was let of by cows "letting off steam" than by cars etc.

    As to cars, why are they still made of components that wear out, when the technology is there to improve this, why are they still made of metal that rusts, when there are stronger, more durable materials?

    As to oil, why are cars etc. still run on oil based products, there are alternatives?

    Politics, big business and jobs for the boys.

    This will not change until political parties are no longer allowed to recieve money from big businesses.

    If you cannot see mass corruption and manipulation, you are not looking.

    Then there is the recycling issue, where in some cases, people are manipulated again. Recycled paper often will cause more harm to the envioronment, by the bleach and products used to make the paper usable again, than if you used sustainable forests. Mensa ran a good article on this some time ago.

    It is amazing what people get away with... In the end... it is all about money.

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    Quote Originally Posted by knightengale View Post
    The main thing i find that puts the whole C02 and cars as the cause of 'Climate change' into question is that all of this is based on 'since records began' . Which doesn't work when the records only go back 200 years at most and even then they aren't the best some of the records are peoples reports in news papers of "It was cold on Tuesday 1785" etc lol........
    Exactly! The quantitative data available (i.e. actual temperature records) is for such a short time period. We have just 200 years of data but there are natural phenomena which may have cycle times of 1000-50000 years. All the rest of the data e.g. ice core drillings, tree ring studies is open to interpretation and must be considered to be qualitative rather than quantitative.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    When it comes to the scientific debate, the simple reality is almost all climate scientists agree that global warming is happening and is caused by human actions. This belief is founded on very strong evidence. A small minority of scientists disagree with the conclusions (and that disagreement is primarily about the cause of global warming, not the fact of it). The vast majority of scientists who disagree with this view do not study the climate.
    Show me a climate scientist that doesn't believe in man-made global warming and I'll show you a climate scientist with no funding.

    The peer review process which is used to ensure that only robust scientific arguments are published is a far from perfect method of progressing scientific knowledge. At its worst, opposing viewpoints can be supressed by the reviewers. The leaked emails appear to contain evidence of this type of collusion. Read them if you wish. They're all here:

    http://www.eastangliaemails.com/index.php

    I do not discount the fact that climate change could be occurring, however, I think it may well be more likely that natural events completely outside mankinds control are responsible. The equivelent of a 'storm-in-a-teacup' on the sun could be changing the climate on the Earth far more than our CO2 emissions ever will.

    I'm not opposed to environmental and efficiency improvements, far from it. I believe we should use resources wisely and keep the planet 'clean' for future generations. However, I would like to know if climate 'scientists' have been massaging their data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    You actually read all that?
    I did too!

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    Re: Have the climate change camp had their fun?

    Quote Originally Posted by knightengale View Post
    ... One of the thing that science does know is that the world will not become flooded due to all the ice melting (think ice cubes in a cup)...
    Floating ice will not affect sea level much when it melts. However there is a lot of ice on land masses that will. There will probably be a lot of earth quakes an perhaps volcanic activity too as the enormous weight is removed.

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