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Thread: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

  1. #21
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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Aww come on. 25th December?

    A date to conflict with a holiday to celebrate the birth of the Sun God Mithras (Sol Invictus)

    It is rather empty to invent a birth date, to conflict with another festival, for your own reasons.

    Got to be a con... so why are we still going along with it?
    Well yes, sort of. I think the early Christian fathers grafted their modes of worship onto existing ones the better to persuade the sullen Celtic tribespeople to take Christianity on board. It probably was a manipulative bid for popularity.

    However, if Christmas wasn't there I think there'd still be a need for something to mark the lowest ebb of the year, as has presumably been happening for millenia. So although I don't specifically believe in the Christian aspects of the festival I have no problem at all with the broader spiritual elements of rebirth, renewal and faith when light is at it's lowest point. Some of the cheesy stuff at Christmas e.g. tinsel, fairy lights, mangers etc relates directly to those elements.

    After all, when Christmas is over the nadir has been passed and we can settle down to wait for Spring!

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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    However, if Christmas wasn't there I think there'd still be a need for something to mark the lowest ebb of the year, as has presumably been happening for millenia. So although I don't specifically believe in the Christian aspects of the festival I have no problem at all with the broader spiritual elements of rebirth, renewal and faith when light is at it's lowest point. Some of the cheesy stuff at Christmas e.g. tinsel, fairy lights, mangers etc relates directly to those elements.
    Indeed, although we keep the name, Christmas is a holiday mish-mash of cultures and beliefs with the occasional religious element from various sources thrown in. The majority celebrate it in some way, regardless of personal religious beliefs. But it is an important holiday and the fact that different people get different things from it, is hardly a surprise - people are different. (I'm not)

    There are attempts, in the US especially, to "claim" Christmas for Christianity with slogans such as "jesus is the reason for the season" but the whole Christmas period has such a diverse history thats provably not true, even if the name makes it sound as if it is. In fact Christmas has, in the past, been specifically banned by christians as being un-christian, and in many far more religious periods of "western" history it was barely worth a mention or much celebrating at all. Its the commercial aspect of christmas and gift giving that has really driven its popularity over the last hundred years or so.

  3. #23
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Aww come on. 25th December?
    Seriously - do you think Christians who celebrate Christmas believe Christ was born exactly on 25th December? Its symbolic - its a time to focus on a particular event.

    OK, you don't believe, (and I'm talking about belief in God here, not belief in 'religion' - which is a very, very different thing!) but imagine for a moment - for someone who believes in the God of the Bible, the Creator, to become a human baby, for the benefit of His creation - its pretty amazing! Maybe you can get a glimpse of what Christmas means then for me. Yes, there are lots of other bits that go along with it as well, and its grafted onto an existing mid winter celebration in Europe - I don't have a problem with that - fusion of cultures has happened in all sorts of ways across history.
    Last edited by Lynn; 9th-December-2009 at 11:09 AM.

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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Seriously - do you think Christians who celebrate Christmas believe Christ was born exactly on 25th December? Its symbolic - its a time to focus on a particular event.

    OK, you don't believe, (and I'm talking about belief in God here, not belief in 'religion' - which is a very, very different thing!) but imagine for a moment - for someone who believes in the God of the Bible, the Creator, to become a human baby, for the benefit of His creation - its pretty amazing! Maybe you can get a glimpse of what Christmas means then for me. Yes, there are lots of other bits that go along with it as well, and its grafted onto an existing mid winter celebration in Europe - I don't have a problem with that - fusion of cultures has happened in all sorts of ways across history.
    Reading that, I feel like someone looking at a huge, juicy steak suddenly discovering that his carnivorous lusts aren't as sharp as they used to be...

    Yikes! Am I going soft?

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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Reading that, I feel like someone looking at a huge, juicy steak suddenly discovering that his carnivorous lusts aren't as sharp as they used to be...

    Yikes! Am I going soft?
    That is so funny!

    I 'nearly' responded myself but then I took a deep breath and let out a little sigh

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Reading that, I feel like someone looking at a huge, juicy steak suddenly discovering that his carnivorous lusts aren't as sharp as they used to be...

    Yikes! Am I going soft?
    Feel free to bite if you want. I'm just explaining what it means to me, not insisting or demanding that others think the same.

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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    not insisting or demanding that others think the same.
    Ditto!
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    What is Christmas really about?

    There seems to be some confusion between Christmas and a Christian religious festival celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. They share the same date, but most of us simply celebrate the holiday - even us Christians

    Stop getting bogged down with all the biblical nonsense - get out and party

  9. #29
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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Feel free to bite if you want. I'm just explaining what it means to me, not insisting or demanding that others think the same.
    Ano-other mouthwatering morsel, but...

    ... No, that's OK. I am letting the spirit of Yuletide infuse me (google 'yule', if you like) and so therefore - no biting.

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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Seriously - do you think Christians who celebrate Christmas believe Christ was born exactly on 25th December? Its symbolic - its a time to focus on a particular event.
    So why all the songs... Christ was born on Christmas day.. etc...
    So what day was Christ born on? Why not use that date?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    OK, you don't believe
    An assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    , (and I'm talking about belief in God here, not belief in 'religion' - which is a very, very different thing!) but imagine for a moment - for someone who believes in the God of the Bible, the Creator, to become a human baby, for the benefit of His creation - its pretty amazing!
    It is amazing.


    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    However, if Christmas wasn't there I think there'd still be a need for something to mark the lowest ebb of the year, as has presumably been happening for millenia. So although I don't specifically believe in the Christian aspects of the festival I have no problem at all with the broader spiritual elements of rebirth, renewal and faith when light is at it's lowest point.
    Indeed, in Thailand they do Loy Krathong. Symbolic of letting go of all one's grudges, anger and defilements, so that one can start life afresh.

    However the pagan origin was... Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving. (certainly in Babylon) - maybe things have changed....

  11. #31
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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    So why all the songs... Christ was born on Christmas day.. etc...
    So what day was Christ born on? Why not use that date?

    It is the same reason (probably) that the majority of images portraying Jesus, have him with European features. The majority of earlier generations population not travelling very far from their village / town. Painters can only work from what they know.

    Combine calender changes and passage of time for the exact date of Jesus birth being lost - also remember that literacy has only really gone up in the last 200 years - so the culture of the world was mainly an oral one - and oral culture can only pass on what is remembered... If a fact is known by everyone, then that fact may very rarely (if ever) be translated into song or ode, never mind later written down..

    Hope that makes sense.

    WT

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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Seriously - do you think Christians who celebrate Christmas believe Christ was born exactly on 25th December? Its symbolic - its a time to focus on a particular event.
    This is one thing that has always bothered me. But only slightly, between mouthfuls of turkey and sips of fine white wine. If our current dating system (AD - Anno Domini) starts with the birth of Christ and time before Christ is called BC, how come the celebration of the birthday of Jesus Christ isn't the first day of the year? Either Jesus was born near the end of the year 0001AD or he as born a few days before the end of year 0001 BC - which would, of course, be a paradox.

    More pudding anyone?

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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger1518 View Post
    also remember that literacy has only really gone up in the last 200 years - so the culture of the world was mainly an oral one
    Hmm. Well, I've passed up a couple of juicy steaks but here's a teeny morsel I can just pop right in the mouth...

    All the books of both Testaments were written down in their final form at least 1500 years ago. The populace may have been predominantly illiterate but western culture has not been predominantly oral for 3,000 years. Then there is the Book of Common Prayer, and so on.

    That's why the destruction of the library of Alexandria was such a disaster, and the ethnic cleansing of the Moors from Spain. Great swathes of written knowledge were obliterated. If the culture had been oral the destruction of books would have been far less significant.

    It's why the Catholic church created propoganda fides and the Index Librorum Prohibitorum. Books have been the major tool for spreading culture and ideas from the Greek era until - oh, about 1960, when you can probably say TV and radio inherited the throne. Controlling that spread of knowledge was one way in which the medieval churches sought to obliterate the 'less Christian' elements of long-standing feast days - midwinter, spring, and so forth - by stapling the veneer of Christmas, Easter and so on over the top. Very successful it was too. Most people never question why misteltoe at Christmas, liddle chickies at Easter...

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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Hmm. Well, I've passed up a couple of juicy steaks but here's a teeny morsel I can just pop right in the mouth...

    All the books of both Testaments were written down in their final form at least 1500 years ago. The populace may have been predominantly illiterate but western culture has not been predominantly oral for 3,000 years. Then there is the Book of Common Prayer, and so on.

    That's why the destruction of the library of Alexandria was such a disaster, and the ethnic cleansing of the Moors from Spain. Great swathes of written knowledge were obliterated. If the culture had been oral the destruction of books would have been far less significant.

    I totally agree that Alexandria was a terrible disaster - Can you imagine if the Bodleian Library, British Library or Library of Congress went up in flames?

    Literacy may have been about - mainly in the monasteries - but the reason why this is so valuable is because it certainly wasn't common - and that is 11 centuaries later than the time you are talking about...

    Oh and I'm sure this has been said somewhere else too... The story if history is always (with a few exceptions) only told through the winners eyes...

    Oh and even after Gutenberg's time widespread literacy wasn't cheap.

    I have been doing my family history lately, and even only 3 or 4 generations back we can easily find official record like Wedding certificates, where people are still making their "Mark" rather than even writing their name. Literacy always has been for the wealthy (either in time or money or both).

    WT

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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    My Auntie has just been told to take the fairy off their Christmas Tree

    as it might upset the gay customers

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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post

    But what's in it for the adults? And what this Chistmassy feeling people are on about?

    When I ask my friends what they're doing for Xmas, most tend to say, "we're doing the usual traditional Christmas day"

    What IS that then

    What do you and your family do on Christmas and Boxing day?

    And if you had your way, would you do anything differently, and if so, what?
    For me, it's simply spending the time with family, - Christmas dinner, a few drinks, and then playing games all afternoon. Card games are a big tradition in our family, it's great fun and very social, - then later we'll do some other silly games, quizes or bingo or whatever, I really enjoy it! I wouldnt want to do anything different, - apart from organise more of my family in the one place

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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Me and the kids are tracking Santa on line. He's currently delivering presents in New Zealand.

    You can track Santa too

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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    For me, it's simply spending the time with family, - Christmas dinner, a few drinks, and then playing games all afternoon.
    Its the same for us, except, we're usually abroad somewhere, which is probably why I wondered what everyone actually does 'here', that's soooo special and why everyone gets in such a flap over it

    I think my family may not be the norm though, as we tend to get together quite frequently anyway and whenever we get together there a chance we may have a little drinkypoo too

    Anyway this year, for reasons out of my control, some of the family couldn't go till after xmas, so we're all going to my sister's for Xmas day and going away for New Year

    But, there's a twist.. I don't know 'exactly' what she has planned but all I know is, we're all having to come dressed in Medieval costume (all I can say is, please don't let us break down on the way )

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I love this!

    It used to take me ages each year to convince my kids that it didn't matter what part of the world we happened to be in, Santa would find them.
    Santa really is extremely clever, as some years he even used to deliver the big presents the day before we went, as he knew we wouldn't be able to bring them back in our luggage allowance!
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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    all I know is, we're all having to come dressed in Medieval costume (all I can say is, please don't let us break down on the way
    Hee, hee. There were a couple of surprised faces last night at the DSC as the regulars for the bar arrived, to see Mrs Claus unloading the equipment from my car

    I almost went to Tesco on the way home for a couple of things, but thankfully, remembered what I was wearing, just in time
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    Re: I'm NOT a Bah Humbug but......

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post

    But, there's a twist.. I don't know 'exactly' what she has planned but all I know is, we're all having to come dressed in Medieval costume (all I can say is, please don't let us break down on the way )

    Just make sure you've got some nice home-spun long coms on under your kirtle.

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