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Thread: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

  1. #101
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Fun? If they are having fun their way, why not join them?
    Because it isn't fun for Chef, and he's not a charity.

    I don't think that people are "unwilling" to learn: everyone wants to be better than they are - some just don't want to put the effort in (but this may be because they see the return on investment is almost negligible).
    Much like with climate change, it's actions that count. Just making an effort is enough for me personally regardless of how slow progress is, but people who aren't making any effort I'd rather avoid too.

    I don't try to teach any partner I'm dancing with or correct any bad habits or improve them in any way: It's not a lesson - It's a dance. I'm here to dance. I've developed my dancing to try and give my partner the best dance I can - every dance. The only difference in what I lead between an experienced dancer and a less experienced one is in the subtly of movements and how much I read my partner.

    That's my take on it. But I'm not a typical dancer.
    That is a very giving position. But as you say - you're not a typical dancer.


    To throw my 2p in because it is a very slow day at work..... I'm closely in a agreement with Chef about who I choose to dance with and why, but I'll add the following:


    As a dancer in my dream world I'd dance with people about as good as me or better all the time. I like the options and the ability to experiment and explore what we can do as a partnership and with the music.

    As a teacher I enjoy dancing with beginners (that I've been teaching) because there's a sense of accomplishment for me I see and feel them improving and growing. This is very different to the feeling I get dancing with an awesome dancer, but it's satisfying in other ways.

    If I don't have some sort of relationship (either as a teacher, fellow student or in some other way) with a begginer though, I'm unlikely to ask them to dance as I'm unlikely to enjoy it on any level. That may sound harsh, and I certainly don't turn them down if they ask me, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it either. Basic considertations like safety and politeness aside, I'm going out dancing primarily to have a good time myself, not to make everyone else feel good at my own expense.

    Finally - to go back to the original question in this thread - I think the answer is fairly obvious. Things that are required to lead someone with very little clue how to follower are very rarely beneficial to leading someone who really can follow. I presume the same is true from the followers perspective. If I learn anything from the act dancing with beginners it's very unlikely to be technical, and much more likely to be patience.
    Last edited by NZ Monkey; 17th-December-2009 at 11:25 PM.

  2. #102
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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    They may be having fun their own way but the often generate a lot of pain for me. That is not fun for me.
    I think that when leads get better at leading, they discover how little is needed to actually lead a good follower: they become very light of touch and ease followers through moves... bliss for a good follower.
    However in becoming such a light follower, they become similar to the 'noodle arm' followers and resistance from back-leading or folk who 'think' they know what you are doing forces the lead's arms & joints in ways that they didn't expect... painful ways.

    Learning how to deal with followers like this seems like a huge step backwards for these leads. And why subject yourself to 'bad' following when it is painful?

    How I lead is by knowing the precise path that my hands travel to lead a movement. I lead the same movement for every partner of every level. I can feel my partner's resistance in every direction and can therefore apply an opposite force to re-direct them onto the path I should be travelling. The further from this 'perfect' path I am forced, then the more force I use to push and pull my partner back on track.
    If my partner is constantly following with the minimum resistance and I feel them applying more resistance, then I know they want to play or are about to hi-jack me (or I've just screwed up). The key to this is consistency.

    I have tried this a few times. I have had followers that bounce either their hands up and down or even their whole bodies.
    Hand bounce I try to apply the resistance thing to... If that doesn't work, I increase the amount of wrist, arm, shoulder and body contact leads. And free-spins.

    Body bounce is much easier to syncopate since it is normally a result of too big steps and bendy knees. Here I drop my centre, bend my knees more and never step away from my partner - stepping in as they step back. Lots of wraps and basket type moves.

    Anyway I get what you are saying. I should be smooth with smooth followers and bouncy with bouncy followers.
    Nope: I'm saying I try to be smooth with smooth followers and bouncy with bouncy followers - you can try and be smooth with everyone and avoid hurting yourself; rule zero of MJ: self-preservation. (Rule one being partner preservation. Everything else is debatable )

    I have the feeling that I am unable to lead much because they reason they are able to flail themselves is that they have disconnected their arms from their body and their legs and feet from their torso.
    Ahhh, the partner who's body follows about a beat behind the lead and limbs flail wildly with the music... they are fun
    It's similar to syncopating the bounce thing, but much harder because they are trying to follow your lead and you are trying to follow their wild movements and lead at the same time... but if you get it right, they can be some of the best dances!

    My approach is to treat it like blues gone through micro-blues, out the other side and grown into a wild parody of it's self Leading moves becomes immaterial - it's about musicality and moving with your partner & the music. Never mind arm leads or the usual hand leads - the focus has to be on their 'core' (although they may seem to have replaced it with jelly) and matching yours to it. It may seem that the subtly of blues is at polar opposites to this type of dancer, but I have found it works really well.
    When these dancers learn a bit more self control and learn how to follow better, they become some of the most expressive and joyful to dance with.

    If we ever on a weekender together and I come across one of these people I will be sure to point them in your direction, partly for your enjoyment and partly for my own education.
    Wouldn't be the first or last time.
    What I don't like is 'picking up' followers who have been torn down by leads because the lead had a bad dance with them - Many, many, many times I have had followers comment that I make them feel like they can dance. Nice to hear {} but it's when they say the last lead told them they were doing everything wrong and telling them how they should respond to his 'lead'... Most of the time, it's the lead expecting the follower to compensate for their failings. (which good followers tend to do 'automatically' - it's part of what makes them "good")

    When you see the same people spending month after month or year after year being instructed to do something in a certain way or not to do something and yet they carry on ignoring that instructions what can I conclude? Are they unable to comprehend their instructor? Thinks that it will never apply to them? Can't be bothered to put in the effort? Why bother going to lesson if you have no desire or intention to learn?
    Because we all tend to see ourselves from the inside rather than the outside; it's a unique perspective. They are not 'ignoring' the instructions - they are completing them exactly how they think they should be completed. It's how they have completed the same set of instructions every month. It looks right from in here. Specific pointers can't be aimed at me - I've been doing this movement for months, I know how it goes.
    :shrug: we are all guilty of it. It takes a huge effort to look at yourself honestly - it's why people go to one-on-one lessons: to get a view from outside.

    But with so many able dancers and a constant supply of beginners in venues I am not able to see where the fun comes in developing these skills.
    Some of the fun is being able to dance with anyone. Some of it is about giving everyone the best dance I can. Some is the 'thank you', grins, and floaty walk you leave with people. Some is the weeks/months to come when you feel the people grow in confidence and ability. Some of the fun comes from that first squeeking crunch of a boot in new snow: taking off a preconception blindfold and showing folk a glimpse of what a dance could be.

    I have no worries about what my partner will/won't do, how the connection will be (if it's there), how musical they will/won't be, how responsive/unresponsive they are, ... I have confidence in my own abilities to handle whatever and recover from any mistakes without hurting anyone or being hurt. I am relaxed, enjoying the music and my partner.

    It's fun because it's dancing.

    I dance because it's fun.

  3. #103
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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    As you say - each to their own. My first two options provide sufficient avenues for self improvement. The last one would seem pointless - if they are unwilling to learn I see no benefit to them or myself in dancing with them. Perhaps you could expand on the ways you feel that dancing with a person that is unwilling to learn can be an opportunity for self improvement. So far I see more than enough beginner dancers to dance with that provide the opportunity to learn how to mitigate the effects of a technically unable partner.

    I just see the bouncy, flailing, backleading long term (a couple of years) beginners as a lost cause. They are having fun their way - it doesn't mean I have to join in.

    Could you tell me what you feel I am missing?
    If someone leads me into perpetual first moves - for example - I can use the repetitions to improve my styling, musicality or maybe add a bit more eye contact - would that do?

    Cheers WT

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger1518 View Post
    If someone leads me into perpetual first moves - for example - I can use the repetitions to improve my styling, musicality or maybe add a bit more eye contact - would that do?

    Cheers WT


    Kinda the same with demoing - if I'm having to go through (say) a yoyo over and over again, I can get bored and zone out, or I can try and make each yoyo slightly better than the previous one. Especially when the teaching stage really isn't very big and slotting actually becomes a requirement otherwise you fall off!

  5. #105
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    they reason they are able to flail themselves is that they have disconnected their arms from their body and their legs and feet from their torso.
    Is self-mutilation encouraged in Sussex then?

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