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Thread: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
    [rather off-topic - sorry]

    Some people remember those things.
    [to continue off-topic!]

    At my very first Ceroc lesson a lady asked me to freestyle with her, - she danced with me for three tracks in a row. As you might expect I “knew” 3 moves, and during those 3 tracks I think managed to get all 3 of those moves right, one after the other, maybe about 2 or 3 times!

    Probably meant nothing to her, but it meant an awful lot to me and always will, - I’m eternally grateful for those dances, & we have always sought each other out for dances since

    I also a remember a woman who, during my very first intermediate lesson, asked if I was in the right class (!), and was very obviously p!ssed off at having to dance with me for those precious 20 seconds. She said "bye" instead of "thanks" at the rotation. That’s something else I have never forgotten.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    It is certainly not true for all beginners in all fields, but there are a few that come into new situations with knowledge from a different field or with a fresh eye that can make very significant contributions.
    I don't dispute that at all, but if you are an intermediate at something, will you learn more from an expert or a beginner? I say "expert".

    "not true for all beginners " : so in some fields a beginner can teach you MORE than an expert? Why do we even bother having instructors? Thats the only thing i am arguing against, not that you will learn nothing at all in all cases. A fresh eye is one thing, arguing that it is better to learn from beginners than experts is another altogether.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I don't dispute that at all, but if you are an intermediate at something, will you learn more from an expert or a beginner? I say "expert".

    "not true for all beginners " : so in some fields a beginner can teach you MORE than an expert? Why do we even bother having instructors? Thats the only thing i am arguing against, not that you will learn nothing at all in all cases. A fresh eye is one thing, arguing that it is better to learn from beginners than experts is another altogether.
    I quite agree
    and in my opinion i think there is only so much you can learn from dancing with beginners
    but by dancing with experienced dancers you can learn a whole lot more
    as DS so rightly says if you can learn as much or even more from beginners whats the point in having instructors who are experienced

    Surely that statement turns all learning completely on its head we could all learn from the people who have taken up dancing after us and we can all teach those who have been dancing longer???

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Of course experts know their field, and great teachers can transmit their expertise. It would be foolish to think that great teaching is not the first and easiest place to learn from. There is no progress in that methodology. All you get are clones of the experts. Sometimes an expert will have a new insight based on superior knowledge thaat takes thing forward. Sometimes it is the people that don't know what is "right", who persist in trying to make something "wrong" work, that introduce change, and sometimes it is people who know something that is right in a different context and introduce that.

    My own personal experience over decades has seen me stroll into situations, wet behind the ears, surrounded by PhD's and MSc's with decades of experience, and, because I did not know where the boundaries were, because I saw it as for the first time, I have made major contributions. I was not generally liked.

    Those that claim that there is nothing to learn from any beginner in any field are simply ignorant and wrong. have previously ted the example of the hot air balloon, which was invented by one of the Montgoflier brothers who thought that clouds were made from smoke and that they were lighter than air.

    I have learned things from a few, special, beginners about how to dance that I do not believe I could have learned from experts. If the lady is trying to do her dance to the music I try to join in, lead a touch of MJ here and there. She appears to enjoy it, and I enjoy he dance and her enjoyment.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    ...There is no progress in that methodology. All you get are clones of the experts.
    Without getting too deep into pedagogy, that's just so far wrong I can't let it go by. The very nature of education and teaching is essentially progressive: the ideal teacher equips the student to learn for themselves. This involves teaching specific facts. But it also involves teaching methods of learning (eg technique). And, perhaps most importantly, it involves generating enthusiasm for the subject matter.

    If you want a non-dancing example, how about Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. Socrates taught Plato who taught Aristotle. The progression of their philosophical thought from teacher to student is one of the greatest achievements of any civilisation. And it is still used as an ideal model of educational progress.

    Of course, that's an ideal and many good teachers don't get to that level. But the idea that teaching is not a progressive approach is wrong. Teaching is essentially a progressive approach.

    On another note: this argument was about "who do you learn most from...?" I don't think anyone has said you learn nothing from beginners (and to suggest otherwise is a creating a strawman - which has been on more than on occasion in the replies to this thread).

    Similarly, the question wasn't asked about whether the experienced dancers do chose to dance with beginners. That is another question entirely - and worthy of its own thread. It is worth pointing out the contradiction however. If you did, in fact, learn more from dancing with beginners, wouldn't it be better to let all the beginners dance with one another for a few weeks. By that stage, they should've learnt enough to teach all of us some new tricks. Either that, or the more experienced dancers dancing with them actually teaches them a great deal...

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    On the shoulders of giants !

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    I love a bit of experience but i love the good feeling you get when you are with a newbie. They make you feel good as they appreciate you showing them something new maybe or smiling at them and following them regardless of poor lead maybe.

    a dance is what you make it after all. I smile all the time so i hope most people feel comfortable and i find a smile works 99% - mind you a good chest also helps

    there is nothing better than a person saying to you, that was fantastic or you are brill LOL it does give you a warm fuzzy feeling all over.

    In WCS i am a beginner. I dance with experienced dancers as i tend to have a good dance then rather than just backwards and forwards, i struggle to keep up but i have not yet met anybody yet who has made me feel inferior or completely crap (not that ive done any for a while). I am the beginner here and i do say to the experienced WCS dancers that its brilliant and thank you because i mean it and i enjoyed it.

    Im sure that newbies mean it when they thank the more experienced people but as for learning from them, no, i dont think i can learn anything from beginners other than - remember to make them feel welcome and remember that you too were one once and i am still one now (well in WCS/Tango) i am xxx

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
    I'll ask a man who's not dancing - and so what if he's a beginner? He may be, he may not be - you may even be surprised and have a wonderful dance.

    Rachel
    This happened to me at the last Hammersmith! The man was so shy I had to lead him onto the floor.

    After a few bars we both realised we weren't beginners. It was a bit of a shock, I had this absolutely amazing dance.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    everyone has their own style when they dance, some can be easier to follow than others.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    I have ceroced for 17 years, taxied for about 6 including the taxi original taxi auditions in 1994 and remember both Cliff (Kent) and Roy (Oxford) when they were beginners. I still attend some or all beginners classes of the venues I attend. i think it's bad enough the amount of experienced dancers (other commitments not withstanding), that only arrive for the intermediate class and or freestyle. But, even worse, there are plenty that on achieving intermediate status refuse to dance with beginners at all. Ceroc was founded as a dance class for people to learn. It is about the beginner. James Cronin even refused to have competitions for that reason. he felt that during "competition time" no intermediates would dance with beginners as they were training for competition.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prian View Post
    i think it's bad enough the amount of experienced dancers (other commitments not withstanding), that only arrive for the intermediate class and or freestyle. But, even worse, there are plenty that on achieving intermediate status refuse to dance with beginners at all.
    Why is this bad? Its up to them, and not all of them will do this, as demonstrated by yourself. It seems you have 2 alternatives; You ban people who are "bad" in this way or you somehow force them to do something they clearly don't enjoy. Either way - you won't see them at the venue for long.

    Ceroc was founded as a dance class for people to learn. It is about the beginner. James Cronin even refused to have competitions for that reason. he felt that during "competition time" no intermediates would dance with beginners as they were training for competition.
    Well he was wrong. You are doing your customers a disservice if you don't allow them any room for expansion, either in competitions, weekenders, more advanced classes etc.. Ceroc are well aware of this now and do all of these things.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Originally Posted by Prian
    i think it's bad enough the amount of experienced dancers (other commitments not withstanding), that only arrive for the intermediate class and or freestyle. But, even worse, there are plenty that on achieving intermediate status refuse to dance with beginners at all.
    I don't mind intermediate/advanced dancers who only arrive for the intermediate class and/or freestyle, the ones that annoy me are the non-beginner dancers that do take part in the beginners' class and do so grudgingly, talking while the teacher is talking and complaining that the teacher is spending too long on something. They seem to have forgotten what it was like to be a beginner, or maybe they were a born natural dancer(!) either way, it can be very offputing for beginners and doesn't help them learn.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Well he was wrong. You are doing your customers a disservice if you don't allow them any room for expansion, either in competitions, weekenders, more advanced classes etc.. Ceroc are well aware of this now and do all of these things.
    .........once they'd realised how much cash they were missing out on


    I think everyone can learn something from beginners. If nothing else, it stops more experienced dancers from getting too sloppy in their leading and following.

    In my opinion some of the most difficult people to dance with are those that have gone all the way from beginners to intermediate/advanced, dancing almost exclusively with one partner. It's not because they can't dance, in fact, usually it's the opposite. Typically they dance very well with each other but struggle with everyone else. They just haven't learned to communicate in the way that most social dancers have. This would seem to suggest that all social dancers would do well to dance with beginners regularly to keep their communication skills up to scratch.

    As for the enjoyment level I get from dancing with beginners versus intermediates or advanced. I'd far rather spend 3.5 minutes with a beginner who smiles at me than with someone much more experienced who barely acknowledges my existence.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    In my opinion some of the most difficult people to dance with are those that have gone all the way from beginners to intermediate/advanced, dancing almost exclusively with one partner. It's not because they can't dance, in fact, usually it's the opposite. Typically they dance very well with each other but struggle with everyone else. They just haven't learned to communicate in the way that most social dancers have. This would seem to suggest that all social dancers would do well to dance with beginners regularly to keep their communication skills up to scratch.
    I thought I would venture some thoughts since I am someone that has had a regular dance partner for quite a while and enjoys dancing with both beginners and experienced dancers (which includes my partner). What I enjoy from each of these groups is different.

    What I enjoy about dancing with beginners is that

    I haven’t been dancing so long that I have forgotten what it feels like to be in that position. I hope to give them an enjoyable, comfortable, smooth and non-intimidating experience that will leave them thinking “yeah, I could do this”. If I frighten people off I am not serving the dance scene in any way. What I get out of it is to give them the idea that a lead does not have to be jarring and forceful to have clarity. I like having to be able to read the abilities of my beginner partner and work to their strengths, and mitigate any weaknesses that they have. I have to cope with the idea that they may not always be able to spin cleanly, have timing issues, lack any idea of positional precision and I have fun trying to recover from the fact that my beginner follower is not technically able. I refuse to give beginners huge leads just to get the job done. I would rather train them to be sensitive to a smooth, clear lead than to train them to ignore a huge bouncy leads that push and shove them off balance.

    Different people will learn at different rates depending upon some element of natural coordination and the amount of application they put in. I try to remember that everyone is trying their best and the bests will get better in time. There is only a small proportion of people that come along to a dance venue with seemingly no other interest than meeting the opposite sex and wearing their finest bling.

    What I enjoy about dancing with experienced dancers and my partner is-

    I can lead a greater degree of subtle movement because it will be picked up. This is almost always a function of the person having a good understanding of frame and core stability.

    Any timing issues are picked up and corrected almost instantly.

    They wait for lead. No lead = no movement.

    Greater degree of positional precision. Travelling spins are in a straight line. Stationary spins are really on the spot.

    They only follow, they do not try to interpret what I am leading and then try to auto complete some move that they know. My partner now has the attitude that she doesn’t need to learn moves, just movement and rhythm pattern. It is looked upon as my job to fully lead a move. It seems to work. One of our practice exercises in close hold is to have me with the Ipod in my ears and my partner to have a blindfold on. This way the only information she has to interpret is my lead and I must generate all the information from my lead that she needs to move in the way I intended.


    What defines beginner, intermediate and experienced dancer for me is more related to the behaviours and abilities rather than just time served on the dance floors. I have met some followers with only three months experience who are sublimely able. Conversely I know some followers who have been dancing 12 years that backlead, rush ahead of the timing of the music, flail their arms and legs to a degree that makes you wonder if they have any bones in their bodies, takes huge steps, and seem to so generally unstable when moving that it is a wonder to me that they are able to walk back to their car without falling over.

    People that are unwilling to translate lessons into actions are my least favourite people to dance with.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    , rush ahead of the timing of the music, flail their arms and legs to a degree that makes you wonder if they have any bones in their bodies, takes huge steps, and seem to so generally unstable when moving that it is a wonder to me that they are able to walk back to their car without falling over.

    People that are unwilling to translate lessons into actions are my least favourite people to dance with.
    I'm regularly surprised that people who made it from their car to the front door of the venue lose the ability to put one foot in front of the other when they make it on to the dance floor.

    My guess is that they lack confidence when they're beginners. Moving a foot forward or back and committing your weight to the other foot is sometimes a giant step for beginners. This used to bug me as a teacher, however, I've seen it so many times I now consider this to be normal human behaviour and do my best to help.

    On the other hand, the people who have been dancing for years and keep getting it wrong should be strung up at the entrance to the car park as an example to others who are considering ingnoring what the teacher says

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    My guess is that they lack confidence when they're beginners. Moving a foot forward or back and committing your weight to the other foot is sometimes a giant step for beginners. This used to bug me as a teacher, however, I've seen it so many times I now consider this to be normal human behaviour and do my best to help.
    The bit of my post that you quoted was not referring to beginners. It was referring to people who had been attending lessons for very many years that still danced like beginners.

    I hope my post gave the intended impression that I have a great deal of time for beginners and I have the hope that I can give them as good an introduction to the dance as I can.

    In the past when I have joined in techincal disussions about dance there seems to always be a group of people who think I and the others are getting too serious and that dancing should be about smiling at your partner and having fun. For sure, mistakes do happen when dancing and we shouldn't beat ourselves or our partners up when these things happen - it is only dancing after all. Dancing should be fun after all but I have more fun by dancing well and improving than I think I would do by dancing badly or not improving. I have only ever tried to dance wel and improve. I want to dance better and lead well for myself as well as my partner and I can't understand people who have been dancing many years who show no interest in improving.

    So my view is

    Dancing with beginners = a chance to influence at an early stage.

    Dancing with able dancers = a chance to hone skills and push boundaries

    Dancing with those unwilling to improve = a waste of shoe leather.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    Dancing with those unwilling to improve = a waste of shoe leather.
    Each to their own...

    Dancing with those unwilling to improve = chance to improve myself

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Each to their own...

    Dancing with those unwilling to improve = chance to improve myself
    As you say - each to their own. My first two options provide sufficient avenues for self improvement. The last one would seem pointless - if they are unwilling to learn I see no benefit to them or myself in dancing with them. Perhaps you could expand on the ways you feel that dancing with a person that is unwilling to learn can be an opportunity for self improvement. So far I see more than enough beginner dancers to dance with that provide the opportunity to learn how to mitigate the effects of a technically unable partner.

    I just see the bouncy, flailing, backleading long term (a couple of years) beginners as a lost cause. They are having fun their way - it doesn't mean I have to join in.

    Could you tell me what you feel I am missing?

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    As you say - each to their own. My first two options provide sufficient avenues for self improvement. The last one would seem pointless - if they are unwilling to learn I see no benefit to them or myself in dancing with them. Perhaps you could expand on the ways you feel that dancing with a person that is unwilling to learn can be an opportunity for self improvement. So far I see more than enough beginner dancers to dance with that provide the opportunity to learn how to mitigate the effects of a technically unable partner.

    I just see the bouncy, flailing, backleading long term (a couple of years) beginners as a lost cause. They are having fun their way - it doesn't mean I have to join in.

    Could you tell me what you feel I am missing?
    Fun? If they are having fun their way, why not join them?

    Bouncy: I can improve my reading of partners by synchronising my own 'bounce' with theirs - it then becomes easier to lead because we are 'in phase' and the bounce doesn't disrupt the communication.

    Flailing: I can learn to wait for my partner before starting something else. I can learn how to lead all the way through a move so they don't get a chance to 'flail'. I can learn to open the dance and give my partner room to flail when and where I choose & if it's safe.

    Back-leading: I can learn to hi-jack, to lead the unpredictable, to dominate in parts and be submissive in other parts.

    Sometimes it's liberating having a partner where you know exactly the boundaries lie - they are so predictable that you know there is somewhere to come back to: it's relativity simple to experiment and play because they will not try and read too much into what you are doing (and you can 'feel' it better when things go wrong - they are confident in what they 'should' be doing: The less confident will hesitate or do something totally unexpected that breaks what you were trying to do: The really good will just follow and compensate for your mistakes.)

    I don't think that people are "unwilling" to learn: everyone wants to be better than they are - some just don't want to put the effort in (but this may be because they see the return on investment is almost negligible).

    I don't try to teach any partner I'm dancing with or correct any bad habits or improve them in any way: It's not a lesson - It's a dance. I'm here to dance. I've developed my dancing to try and give my partner the best dance I can - every dance. The only difference in what I lead between an experienced dancer and a less experienced one is in the subtly of movements and how much I read my partner.

    That's my take on it. But I'm not a typical dancer.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Fun? If they are having fun their way, why not join them?
    They may be having fun their own way but the often generate a lot of pain for me. That is not fun for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Bouncy: I can improve my reading of partners by synchronising my own 'bounce' with theirs - it then becomes easier to lead because we are 'in phase' and the bounce doesn't disrupt the communication.
    I have tried this a few times. I have had followers that bounce either their hands up and down or even their whole bodies. This is most bizarre during "let there be love" by Nat king cole as I am amazed how they get sufficient air time during such a slow track. Anyway I thought that I might as well jo=oin in since I couldn't stop them and this resulted in the pair of us bouncing up and down like rabbits but with synchronicity. I really found it a challenge to lead much with my partner wholly airborne between beats as the primary direction of motion was entirely vertical.

    Anyway I get what you are saying. I should be smooth with smooth followers and bouncy with bouncy followers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Flailing: I can learn to wait for my partner before starting something else. I can learn how to lead all the way through a move so they don't get a chance to 'flail'. I can learn to open the dance and give my partner room to flail when and where I choose & if it's safe.
    I have the feeling that I am unable to lead much because they reason they are able to flail themselves is that they have disconnected their arms from their body and their legs and feet from their torso. This removes the ability of my lead to have any influence over them. I am not sure what the point of my being there would be at this point apart from keeping their hands warm. It seems you have found a way of continous leading that means that "spaghetti arms" (and indeed legs) are no longer a obstacle to clear leading. I would really like to see how this works with a follower who is totally noodle armed and have an explanation as to how it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Back-leading: I can learn to hi-jack, to lead the unpredictable, to dominate in parts and be submissive in other parts.
    Back leading can be really painful especially when you have got your arms in unfortunate positions and your follower decides to wrench your arms because she has decided she knows what move you are going to do. I am afraid that I take the cowards way out under these circumstances and lead plain vanilla beginner and a few simple intermediate moves and avoid any attempts to use musicallity that may be contrary to expectation of the "follower". I have had too many fingers bent backwards, elbow joints snapped open, shoulders wrenched backwards to want to take this risk just for the sheer challenge of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Sometimes it's liberating having a partner where you know exactly the boundaries lie - they are so predictable that you know there is somewhere to come back to: it's relativity simple to experiment and play because they will not try and read too much into what you are doing (and you can 'feel' it better when things go wrong - they are confident in what they 'should' be doing: The less confident will hesitate or do something totally unexpected that breaks what you were trying to do: The really good will just follow and compensate for your mistakes.)
    As I said there are beginners and there are the experienced dancers and I get different things out of dancing with each group. There is a number of noodle armed, bouncy, back leading followers who have many years on the dance scene that I don't enjoy dancing with because I find them unfulfilling or dangerous to dance with and given their years on the dance scene there is little prospect of further improvement. As you say, you are not a typical dancer and you enjoy the challenge. If we ever on a weekender together and I come across one of these people I will be sure to point them in your direction, partly for your enjoyment and partly for my own education.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I don't think that people are "unwilling" to learn: everyone wants to be better than they are - some just don't want to put the effort in (but this may be because they see the return on investment is almost negligible).
    If you don't want to put the effort in then is this just another way of saying "unwilling". It seems to me in the classes that I attend that the people that most need to listen to the teacher are the ones that are chatting to their partner when things are being explained and then bobs up like a meerkat and asks "what did they say?" and proceeds to spend the rest of the lesson screwing up the same move time after time. When you see the same people spending month after month or yea after being instructed to do something in a certain way or not to do something and yet they carry on ignoring that instructions what can I conclude? Are they unable to comprehend their instructor? Thinks that it will never apply to them? Can't be bothered to put in the effort? Why bother going to lesson if you have no desire or intention to learn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I don't try to teach any partner I'm dancing with or correct any bad habits or improve them in any way: It's not a lesson - It's a dance. I'm here to dance. I've developed my dancing to try and give my partner the best dance I can - every dance. The only difference in what I lead between an experienced dancer and a less experienced one is in the subtly of movements and how much I read my partner.
    The teacher is there to teach the class. You say the only difference between dancing with an expereinced and less experienced follwer is the subtley of movement and how you read your partner. If your partner is noodle armed and entirely disconnected from your lead there would appear to be no opportunity to lead except with contact with the torso, subtle movement or otherwise. Being able to contrl a back leader sounds to be merely a case of how much you are prepared to fight back and dominate the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    That's my take on it. But I'm not a typical dancer.
    I thank you for your reply. I would really like to see how you adapt to bouncy, noodle armed, or back leading followers. It sounds like quite a skill. But with so many able dancers and a constant supply of beginners in venues I am not able to see where the fun comes in developing these skills.

    You are indeed an atypical dancer.

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