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Thread: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

  1. #41
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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Well, we will never agree, but I simply don't agree with this. It's not how I've been taught to dance, it's not how I like to dance and it is a very limiting way to dance. If the lead has to lead every movement, then there are a huge range of moves that become impossible and it largely removes the follow from the dance. I know people do dance that way, but personally, I find it dull and uninteresting.

    For me, a good lead is leading every change in direction or momentum. It isn't leading every step. This has absolutely no effect on your connection or hijacking. One can (and must) maintain a good connection without actually providing a lead.
    OK... so in your previous post, you describe how in a first move, an experienced follower will "naturally" turn to face, whereas for a beginner, you have to lead that change of direction, making that a bad lead. Yet you say that a good lead means leading every change in direction (which I happen to agree with, and which is part of what CRM was saying in the post you disagree with.)

    Hence the confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    A little clarification - I too believe in keeping a constant lead at all times. etc
    All good stuff. Yet...

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    For example, I danced with a couple of beginners at my last class and found that they were reluctant to even do a basic return. So I needed to turn them with my leading hand, accentuating that lead. If I did that with a dancer who knows how to spin properly, I'd most likely pull them off balance.
    And this is the kind of thing I was talking about. If a particular lead is going to pull an experienced follow off balance, there is no way I'll even consider leading a novice like that. I'd rather they stood there and did nothing (or turned the wrong way) than subject them (or myself) to that.

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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    Yes it is. In fact, it's better leading than if you just signal the lady to "come hither" and expect her to finish the rest of the movement herself - how is she to know what you're planning to do in the next couple of beats? A good lead is a constant lead - the only time the lead disappears is if the lady is disconnected from you (eg a spin) or if she's gone and hijacked your otherwise lovely move in order to wiggle her shapely behind in your direction
    with bells on!

    Anything else simply encourages the follow to anticipate. I've danced with some leads who haven't done a single recognisable "move" in the entire dance. If I'd done what geoff suggests it would simply not have worked.

    CRM you sound like a lovely lead - hope I get a chance to dance with you one of these days.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Hmmmmmm...? I agree with CRM's description of the lead, - however, I reckon Geoff probably does lead it exactly the same way.

    Both step back, tension builds which leads the follow forward, - then, as she steps forward the Follows right hand compresses into the Leads left, - keeping a frame this will automatically make the Follow pivot CW, & into the Leads right hand on her left shoulder blade as she twists out.

    It sounds to me when Geoff says "the follow should naturally turn to face me" that this is what is happening. By keeping a frame (and it's a move done so often) you probably forget about the compression which is happening which leads the pivot/twist out?

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    OK... so in your previous post, you describe how in a first move, an experienced follower will "naturally" turn to face, whereas for a beginner, you have to lead that change of direction, making that a bad lead. Yet you say that a good lead means leading every change in direction
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post
    It sounds to me when Geoff says "the follow should naturally turn to face me" that this is what is happening. By keeping a frame (and it's a move done so often) you probably forget about the compression which is happening which leads the pivot/twist out?
    Every change from the natural turn. In the first move example, the initial step and opening the slot gives sufficient lead to initiate the natural turn. This is because you move the follow's frame in the right direction. Once the frame's moving, you need to maintain connection, but only apply any real lead when the direction changes (ie when she's at the end of your arm and ready to step back). The step back is all on the follower to complete the natural progression of the movement; leading it back is bad leading. You should be able to lead a first move with an initial lead from the leading hand then control the turn out with the right hand on he shoulder blade. But with beginners, I find you need to lead both the full turn out and the step back - neither of which are indicative of good leading.

    And, no, I didn't forget about compression. There just isn't any during that part of a first move; the turn of my frame should turn her as she's stepping in. You lead the follow forward on the first step, opening your frame as you do so, which initiates the turn. From that point, you have only connection (and you can let go, if you so desire). You regain connection with the right hand on her back and tension in the right hand when the follow steps back. The left hand is, at most, decoration once you've led that initial step.
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    And this is the kind of thing I was talking about. If a particular lead is going to pull an experienced follow off balance, there is no way I'll even consider leading a novice like that. I'd rather they stood there and did nothing (or turned the wrong way) than subject them (or myself) to that.
    Maybe. With a good follow, the lead for a turn is the prep for the turn. If you're asking for multiple turns, then you may need to provide a pulse through the turn to keep it going. Anything else is unnecessary with a good follow. With practice, you can usually do this without taking your follow off balance - but even the best dancers are likely to pull slightly of centre from time to time. Good form is to lead the prep into the turn then hold your hand directly over their centre. With a novice, this approach simply does not work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Anything else simply encourages the follow to anticipate. I've danced with some leads who haven't done a single recognisable "move" in the entire dance. If I'd done what geoff suggests it would simply not have worked.
    Perhaps I've not explained it well. Anticipation is one of the reasons I need to lead differently with novices. A good follow follows the lead and doesn't anticipate. A novice tends to either anticipate either by not following the lead, by not completing the led movement, or by completing the move they think you're leading, rather than following the movement led. The two follows that I've found the approach I'm talking about works best with are Nicole and Yuko. Both of whom are reasonably good...

    With an experienced follow, the only times I get that, "what do you want me to do" look are when I've lead poorly or when they don't follow through with the movement I've lead (and the better the follow, the more likely it is that it'll be my mistake). With a novice, one change I make is to dance within my ability far more, so I make very few mistakes leading them.

    The basic point is this: to lead well, you require the follow to do their part of the dance well - to follow well. If they do not, you need to change your leading. This change is a change for the worse.

    I can pretty much guarantee the reverse is true (although I can't speak from much experience). If a follow is dancing with a poor lead, they will change their dancing - probably by anticipating or back leading.
    Last edited by geoff332; 21st-November-2009 at 01:48 PM.

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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Spot on!

    What could bring more joy, than a beginner saying "you made my night' or "I didn't know I could do that"

    At Camber, I was dancing with a certain forumite (who's not a beginner, but fairly new to blues) and he said, "woooo nobody's ever done that to me before' ( I was assisting him to spin faster in closed hold) and 'his' excitement gave 'me' a great deal of joy!

    Then he fell asleep!




    A certain forumite will incoporate her own stuff INTO the dance, - rather than a contrived "okay, now i'm doing my bit.... - finished, - back to you leading" - it completely flows into the dance, and she uses the lead as part of her input/hijack/whatever-its-called so it never feels like a contrived changed of lead, it feels like were dancing together.

    When someone starts playing around it shows me what is possible, - & I can (try) & mirror certain things which teaches me new stuff and gives me new ideas.

    Most of the dances I have it's just "me lead - you follow", which sometimes doesn't feel like we're 'dancing together', - not as much anway, & its no-where near as much fun. Plus as well when a Follow adds in her own stuff it gives me a break from having to lead everything

    I don't dance with these "types" of Follows often though, so it's a bit of a learning curve for me at the moment when it does happen! I know I need to allow a Follow more opportunity to play in general.... - so I guess I can only practice that with more experienced dancers.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Every change from the natural turn. In the first move example, the initial step and opening the slot gives sufficient lead to initiate the natural turn.
    Fair enough - thinking about it, you're probably right... *however....


    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    This is because you move the follow's frame in the right direction. Once the frame's moving, you need to maintain connection, but only apply any real lead when the direction changes
    Completely agree.


    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    But with beginners, I find you need to lead both the full turn out and the step back - neither of which are indicative of good leading.
    I understand what you're saying. It's funny how the simplist of things become over complicated on a written forum, - it often happens when talking about dance, as its so much easier to demo than explain using text.


    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    And, no, I didn't forget about compression. There just isn't any during that part of a first move;
    I understand exactly what you're saying, *however, I still reckon there might be a teeny weeny insey winsey, FRACTION, of compression there during that pivot

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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    with bells on!

    Anything else simply encourages the follow to anticipate. I've danced with some leads who haven't done a single recognisable "move" in the entire dance. ...........
    I'm sure you're a lovely little dancer, but this does make it sound as though you're a bit of a 'move counter'. Very low marks for me then.

    Some would say that the essence of a good dance is a natural flow in which individual movements melt and meld into a seamless musical whole. One day .........

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Originally Posted by Martingold
    The thing is when your dancing with someone who has more experience they have much more to pass on to you whereas with the less experienced its you that is doing the passing on
    As regards learning from from more experienced dancers I agree. As regards passing on to less experienced dancers don't you learn from from this? I find I learn by working out what is going wrong and experimenting with different ways of correcting that during the dance. By practising this in a more concentrated way with less experienced dancers, it has a knock on effect when dancing with more experienced dancers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I wasn't talking about actually playing football with professionals that would be silly, i meant in general terms of ability to learn from them. If a 10 year old or Ronaldo were to give you tips on football - whos advice would be better? In anything, I'd go with the experts over the beginners.
    We are not talking about the same thing then.

    We were talking about learning during the equivalent of playing football, freestyle dancing at a weekender.

    Of course if you had a football lesson and partnered a a top notch professional footballer you are going to learn a lot compared to a novice footballer or a 10 year old . So if we were talking about workshops at a weekender I would agree with you.

    But we wasn't.
    I know you never said "dumb down", I said "dumb down", If your, normally clear, lead is not "clear enough" then you ARE dumbing it down in order they can understand it. To put effort into something that should be effortless is not a positive step i would say.
    I don't lead in the same way when I dance with a more experienced dancer compared to a less experienced dancer. The whole emphesis of the dance is different. I lead much lighter when I dance with a more experienced dancer because we dance together and the lead/follow boundaries are much more blurred.

    I would also dance more slowly and deliberately with a less experienced dancer compared to a more experienced dancer when there is a faster track.

    Where I change my way of leading I have to think more and due to that I learn more.
    I would disagree; where you can concentrate purely on the dancing, rather than fumbling over moves your partner knows by rote, your dancing can only improve.
    I never used the words fumbling. If this is your experience when dancing with less experienced dancers I am not surprised you disagree with what I am saying.

    And incidentally, this is the second time you have used your own words as mine in this argument.
    No it isn't. Or rather yes it is, but not in the way you mean : you are simply learning how to lead beginners to their level of ability to follow, and are not improving your own dancing in the slightest. How many people reading a bedtime story to a four year old are "engaging their mind" and learning about the English language to any useful degree? I don't think its too ridiculous to use that comparison when talking about a dancer who has been dancing for 5 years dancing with a beginner on their 3rd class.
    I would suggest to you the process of working out why a less experienced follower is not following the way you leading is an important learning experience. First you have to work out why the lead is not working and then you try and adjust that lead in line with those conclusions. The more practise you get at that kind of analysis, on the spot when you are dancing, the more you wil be able to apply that with whoever you dance with and so improve your dancing generally.

    DS, why do you keep using children in your examples. they seem to have little relevance in the discussion we are having and are just adding red herrings or an irrelevance. Are you something like a school teacher in your day job?

    Who is "we". I AM comparing like for like.
    No I am not, what gave you that idea? In my scenario you can speak the language to a reasonable degree but according to you, you would be better to further your understanding of the language by conversing with someone that really struggles, rather than a native speaker. And all because using much simplified words with the beginner speaker will, again according to you, "engage your mind" and "result in you learning"...learning what? how to say "my hovercraft is full of eels"? It makes no sense to me whatsoever.
    I would suggest to you that a native speaker will only improve his native speaker skills in a learning environment. In weekender terms a workshop not freestyle time. Therefore the only reasonable inference I could draw was the one I did draw.

    I would suggest that none of your list of things you "learn" from beginners, have you actually learning anything that you wouldn't perform better with a more experienced dancer
    DS the above comment was in relation to Lory's list. I agree with your comment in part but not in relation to
    - to hone the art of 'compensating' for their mistakes.. and to make them feel good about themselves

    and in part
    -to give them confidence

    My comments in this regard, as they relate to our debate are:
    I have not said you cannot learn from experienced dancers, you can and do. I did imply that you do not learn exclusivley from more experienced dancers in a freestyle environment. I did say you can learn from beginners because of the specific problems they present. You will not generally learn from more experienced dancers what you learn from less experienced dancers, although in theory you can, because in reality the opportunities to learn what you can with less experinced dancer arise with infinitely greater frequency when dancing with them compared to more experienced dancers.

    In a workshop environment I learn a great deal when I partner a more experienced dancer and I am struggling.

    Where I am able to grasp what is being taught I learn just as much but in different ways when comparing more and less experienced dancers. In this type of situation the confidence and encouragement my partner gives me is the most important factor.

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    Originally Posted by straycat
    I think... that if you regard the leader's role as simply leading a follower through a set of moves, I can understand this viewpoint.If you regard leading as dancing with a follower - then, for reasons I don't need to go into (I'd only be repeating what people like DS have already said), I cannot understand it at all.
    Whoever I dance with, the dance is dictated by the music and the interreaction between us.

    When I dance with a more experienced dancer, I dance as the music and our interreaction directs. The only limitations to the way we dance are my limitations.

    When I dance with a less experienced dancer, the dance is still dictated by the music and our interreaction but the limitations to what we dance is dictated by my assessment of the followers knowledge.

    When I dance with a new dancer, the main criteria are not to upset their confidence and the safety of both of us.

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    Originally Posted by Geoff332
    No, they most definitely do not.
    .... it means providing a different lead, that is generally leading poor technique.

    That is where we differ. I believe to lead with poor technique is of no use to anybody. You find good technique to lead a move and yes it takes alot of patience. It is this process that enables you to learn from beginners.

    Again, that's a categorical no.
    .....the concentration is around the music
    I said leading not dancing with, so we may be in agreement with the general principle here. When I dance with a more experienced dancer the dance is dictated by the music and our interereaction and not by what moves to lead. We just dance.

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    CRM you sound like a lovely lead - hope I get a chance to dance with you one of these days.
    He is. And I get to dance with him every week.

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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard View Post
    Ibut this does make it sound as though you're a bit of a 'move counter'.
    Out of context, that might be true. In context, it makes her sound like precisely the opposite (and someone I'd love to dance with)

    Oh - and while I'm sure it wasn't intentional, I'd say that you're now the leading contender for the 'most patronising sounding post of the thread' award.

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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Well, we will never agree, but I simply don't agree with this. It's not how I've been taught to dance, it's not how I like to dance and it is a very limiting way to dance. If the lead has to lead every movement, then there are a huge range of moves that become impossible and it largely removes the follow from the dance. I know people do dance that way, but personally, I find it dull and uninteresting.

    For me, a good lead is leading every change in direction or momentum. It isn't leading every step. This has absolutely no effect on your connection or hijacking. One can (and must) maintain a good connection without actually providing a lead.

    Oh, and it's not a signal, it's a lead. A rather big difference...
    Fair enough. I think we are possibly talking at slight cross purposes regarding what actually constitutes a lead - I did mean "lead the lady forward" in my previous post but used the word signal because otherwise I would have used 'lead' way too much! I totally agree that a good lead will control the follow's direction and momentum, but I think it can go beyond that when appropriate, such as dancing with a beginner or showing someone a new move, or when required to lead specific footwork or something like that. I remember being told at one point that a really good leader will be able to lead the follow's position, weight distribution, foot placement and basically everything else. That won't always be necessary - sometimes it will, and sometimes as you quite rightly said the follow needs to contribute (drops in particular come to mind for that). It also doesn't really apply to hijacking (obviously) and moments when you dilute the lead enough that your partner, should they choose to, can play around a bit and do their own thing.

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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Thats great to hear but I would assume that a dancer with 2 moves would be a very beginner and wouldn't have the first clue about how to mess around and have fun especially with someone like Nina.Lovely thought that it is I think to be taken with apinch of salt.
    Every once in a while a beginner lady turns up that is a handbag dancer, and loves it. When the music starts they want to dance, not to learn. Quite often they seem to have decided that the lessons are too difficult or too boring and have given up on the class moves. They just want to do their own thing. If I get the scent that there is a real dancer within, I will try to just join in and play. Often enough it works, and we just play with the music with a touch of MJ thrown in here and there. If I can do that I am sure that Nina, and many other forumites, can do that too. I have had some superb dances with first timers. It is rare, but it happens.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    The basic point is this: to lead well, you require the follow to do their part of the dance well - to follow well. If they do not, you need to change your leading. This change is a change for the worse.
    This, I think, is the part I definitely disagree with. The precise way in which you lead your partner will be different from one follow to another, and one of the many things that affect it is your partner's experience level. However, the *quality* of your lead does not depend on your partner's experience level, just as it doesn't depend on their height, balance, flexibility, cup size* etc etc. It depends on how well the leader leads that partner. A good lead can adapt to leading a professional dancer or a brand new beginner with three left feet. The leader may enjoy the first dance more, but the aim is for the follow to enjoy the dance. If the follow comes away smiling, the leader has done their job. This was what I was getting at in my original post in the weekender thread - I came away from a few dances at Skegness where the follow had obviously expected much more, and had looked confused and/or disappointed by the end, so clearly I hadn't been leading well, and that was very disappointing for me as a leader**.

    *Distracting your partner with a low-cut top and a balcony bra may be amusing, but you may find his lead is adversely affected

    **The best and most memorable dance I had at Skegness was actually as a follow...

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    Cool Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    It does seem like some of these points are a little at crossed purposes. There's a difference in leading depending upon the dance you are leading. MJ is a fun, easy dance and it works so well because the guys are taught to 'lead' and the gals are taught to 'follow'. Plug them into each other with a few moves in muscle memory and away you go. Two happy people, one happy dance, one happy evening.

    The problem is; in the main, none of these people are being taught to lead or follow. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the basic MJ principal of teaching. It does introduce a lot of people the what the world of dance has to offer.

    However, when you have a MJ discussion forum that attracts leads and follows from many different dance styles, you will get confusion, misunderstanding and fall outs. The way most people who dance MJ judge leads is basically, how good are they at steering. The moves, while needed are not as important as being able to steer the follow through the moves you both know on time to the beat. That's what makes MJ so accessible and great!

    But lots of dancers who start MJ whilst initially charmed by the simplicity and ease of the dance often grow to find it starts to lack challenge. They therefore look to other dances, like WCS, Lindy, Blues, Tango... It is only then that the dancers start to learn the truth about how they have been taught to 'lead'. Please, don't get me wrong. This is *not* a snobbish dig at the simplicity of MJ - quite the opposite. I am just recognising that there are dance styles, other than MJ. These 'other' dance styles tend to agree on what lead means. Their definition, while basically united is not the same as the definition that MJ companies use.

    Back to the point. Who do you learn most from. Well if you cannot learn from people with less experience, how do world champions continue to develop and learn? Learning from beginners starts with a great big chomp out of your own ego (maybe this would be a good time for that pinch of salt mentioned earlier). If you're not learning from pretty much every dance you have, you're either not pushing yourself and your partner hard enough, y'know, taking the lazy option. Or you are too busy tripping over your own ego to realise that mistakes only exist if you allow them to

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_dB View Post

    I understand exactly what you're saying, *however, I still reckon there might be a teeny weeny insey winsey, FRACTION, of compression there during that pivot
    It would seem not.

    I often use the 'open' first-move, just to bring a little variation into my rather same-ish dance and few but rank beginners (to my constant admiration and gratification) have any problem following this.

    Left to Right, lead the follower forward - and let go. (Apart maybe from styling, the Left plays no further part in the move until the final Return.) The follower moves foward to my right side, rotating into the crook of my right arm, and steps back right as I also step back right. My Right on her right shoulder sweeps her forward and across left, before sliding to her left shoulder to initiate her CW exit turn (this last bit where direct contact is lost and she has her back turned seems to be the most confusing for many beginners).

    Quite obviously this bare-bones description leaves out a myriad subtleties of lead and follow, many at the edge of consciousness, which it is all but impossible to quantify. The most obvious 'indicator' (signal/prep?) not mentioned is that rather than my right hand moving out at hip level whilst the follower is moving forward, as in a normal as-taught first-move, for the open first-move it is moving out at shoulder height.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    ....If you're not learning from pretty much every dance you have, you're either not pushing yourself and your partner hard enough, y'know, taking the lazy option. Or you are too busy tripping over your own ego to realise that mistakes only exist if you allow them to
    When I dance, I concentrate on things like the music, the connection, having fun etc.

    When I go to a lesson I think in terms of learning, pushing myself and how to correct my mistakes etc.

    Thats not to say there isn't overlap but they are my basic mindsets.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Back to the point. Who do you learn most from. Well if you cannot learn from people with less experience, how do world champions continue to develop and learn? Learning from beginners starts with a great big chomp out of your own ego (maybe this would be a good time for that pinch of salt mentioned earlier). If you're not learning from pretty much every dance you have, you're either not pushing yourself and your partner hard enough, y'know, taking the lazy option. Or you are too busy tripping over your own ego to realise that mistakes only exist if you allow them to
    Ego. Hmm. Next to fear, probably the biggest block to learning - certainly in dance. Probably the most successful step I've taken in getting more out of dance learning opportunities has been to learn to set aside my first my ego, and secondly my fear of making mistakes. Of course mistakes exist, and making them is an important part of the learning process.

    On the beginner / experienced debate - I don't think anyone's saying that you learn nothing from dancing with a less experienced dancer. Just that you learn different things. An example - some dances help me learn new things. Others tend to give me more of an insight into what my own dancing and leading is like. I'd say that more often, dancing with a similarly or less experienced follow will help me with the second of those, whereas dancing with someone more experienced is more likely to give me both.

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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    I think we are possibly talking at slight cross purposes regarding what actually constitutes a lead - I did mean "lead the lady forward" in my previous post but used the word signal because otherwise I would have used 'lead' way too much!
    Most likely; it's hard to explain in words without actually showing. Half of what I'm writing is to help me explain it to myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    I think it can go beyond that when appropriate, such as dancing with a beginner
    That was my whole point was it is necessary with beginners.
    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    ...showing someone a new move
    Maybe. I certainly do that from time to time. But I don't consider it good leading. Necessary, but not good.
    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    when required to lead specific footwork or something like that.
    If you can't lead the footwork properly - that is with the sort of leading I'm describing - then it has no place as part of a led move. It can be included by one partner or the other as a variation and can be mirrored. Most of the common footwork variations I can think of can be led without leading badly.
    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    I remember being told at one point that a really good leader will be able to lead the follow's position, weight distribution, foot placement and basically everything else.
    It's actually not that hard, if you have a good connection and frame.
    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    That won't always be necessary - sometimes it will, and sometimes as you quite rightly said the follow needs to contribute (drops in particular come to mind for that).
    I think it is always necessary. Of course, both partners will lose it from time to time. But the objective should be to always to
    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    It also doesn't really apply to hijacking (obviously) and moments when you dilute the lead enough that your partner, should they choose to, can play around a bit and do their own thing.
    Hijacking doesn't exist. At any time when there's compression, then the lead's in charge. When you have only connection, then there's plenty of space to throw in variations.

    In the first move example, if I lead a first move, I expect the follow to turn and step back into my right hand, creating tension for the second half of the move. If the follow decides to speed that up or slow it down, that's their call. Or put an extra spin in or whatever. As long as they complete the move properly, what they do between the lead and the completion is fine. But this isn't hijacking; it's dancing and they're still follow the lead.

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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Out of context, that might be true. In context, it makes her sound like precisely the opposite (and someone I'd love to dance with)

    Oh - and while I'm sure it wasn't intentional, I'd say that you're now the leading contender for the 'most patronising sounding post of the thread' award.
    Thank you for pointing out that my remarks might be misinterpretted.

    If you do view them in that light Twirly, please accept my apologies. It's just that I'm a little bit sensitive about my seeming inability to increase the variety and content, and thus number of moves, in my dance.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    ...the aim is for the follow to enjoy the dance.
    No, no, no. Never. That's total nonsense.

    If you're going to use enjoyment as a purpose (and I can't think of a better one), then the purpose is for both the lead and the follow to enjoy the dance. If I don't enjoy a dance, then no amount of pleasure from the person I'm dancing with will make it a good dance. Similarly, if I have a great time, but the follow is miserable, then it's just as bad. Without question, the best dances I've had are the ones where we have that brilliant connection and we both have a fantastic time for that few minutes.

    This whole idea of, "it's all about the follow" or "a good lead can lead anyone just as well" is just nonsense (and borders on a curious form of misogyny - the little woman can't have responsibility for the dance). It's a partnership: both partners have to share in the responsibility for the dance and the outcome of the dance.

    This is a pet hate of mine - probably best to ignore this post. But...

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