Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

[straycat]

Straycat come on back over to the other thread, Frodo is being duffed up by the girls.

Lucky Frodo....

[Lory]

• to backlead them into following 'me'

Well - if you dance with a good enough leader, and start doing that syncopation, you may find that they start to copy you,

Cough!!!

[dave the scaffolder]

Serious for a bit now, I dance with everyone and there is no one that frightens me.

At a couple of JA weekender's I was dancing with some demo's from the lessons and they were saying the same thing that no one asks them to dance because they are intimidated by them.

If they were lucky enough to be asked, or they asked someone, they invariably got a dance full of flashy moves to impress them.

I asked them and gave them me old 8 move dance with a couple of belly rubs and belly bounces, they loved it and we had some great dances.

Don't dance with the reputation, dance with the person.

DTS XXX XXX

[straycat]

Cough!!!

Did I misunderstand? Or are you coming down with something?

[Lynn]

Don't dance with the reputation, dance with the person.

Nina turned up at our Belfast venue once. Hardly anyone knew who she was - loads of guys asked her to dance and no-one was intimidated. As far as they were concerned she was just a visiting dancer and she was dancing with everyone and looked like she was having fun.

[djtrev]

OK I am slowly getting your drift folks but would you say that it's easier for a unaccomplished follow to have a better dance with a accomplished lead than the other way round.

[emmylou25]

Most people go to events to dance, plain and simple, and almost everyone gets enjoyment from dancing with beginners and experts alike. Sure - there are a very few for whom that isn't the case, but that's the exception, not the rule, and I'd suggest that they more than anyone are the ones who miss out.

I obviously give off a don't ask me to dance look as i rarely get asked and so I'm usually the one that does the asking. Ok, so there are people i look out to dance with, but if I'm stood on the side when I want to dance, then I'll ask anyone stood near me who looks like they also want to dance.

At Bliss, apart from the people I knew or who I'd specifically looked for, I think the majority of my dances in the main room were with either beginners or newish intermediate levels. Only one of those was a boring/tedious dance - mostly because of the person rather than his dancing standard. I can usually get something positive from dancing with beginners; often beginners are really pleased at having got through a track and enjoyed dancing with someone more experienced than them. That enjoyment rubs off (plus often you get a compliment afterwards).

Out of choice at a freestyle I won't look out for beginners to dance with, but I wouldn't turn them down if they ask (usually I don't know until we're dancing). But IMO as I want to improve my dancing, the best way to do this is social dancing, by dancing with more experienced and better dancers. If everyone wants the same from their dancing, it may mean that less confident dancers may miss out if they can't get over the having to ask those people to dance issue. As for most people who say they're not strong dancers, take heart - I'm sure there's many people on here who've had better dancers with some beginners/less experienced dancers than some hotshots (I know I did at the last weekender).

[emmylou25]

OK I am slowly getting your drift folks but would you say that it's easier for a unaccomplished follow to have a better dance with a accomplished lead than the other way round.

In my experience, a really accomplished and unselfish lead will cater for the level of the follow which would mean that the follow wouldn't necessarily feel out of their depth compared with an experienced but selfish lead who may just drag the follow around doing whatever the lead wanted and vs a less experienced lead who's probably concentrating more on their lead rather than the enjoyment of the follow.

From comments during taxi classes, a lot of newer follows are intimidated by intermediate dancers however accomplished they are so at that stage they're probably looking to enjoy the dance (with whatever level partner), want to be led well and not want to be wrenched round. I'd say that's the same for any standard of follower.

[straycat]

OK I am slowly getting your drift folks but would you say that it's easier for a unaccomplished follow to have a better dance with a accomplished lead than the other way round.

Well .... since Lynn brought up Nina, I might as well add something that the lady herself told me a few years back - she said that she'd much rather have a dance with a beginner who knew two moves, but was happy to mess around, experiment and have fun - than with an experienced dancer who knew a hundred moves that he was only too eager to show off, but who took things too seriously.

So to answer your question - a technically better dance? Very likely, yes. A more enjoyable dance? That's a far more level playing field than you might expect.

[Twirly]

I obviously give off a don't ask me to dance look as i rarely get asked and so I'm usually the one that does the asking. Ok, so there are people i look out to dance with, but if I'm stood on the side when I want to dance, then I'll ask anyone stood near me who looks like they also want to dance.

Am in agreement with a lot of what emmylou has to say here

I do also try and get dances with those whom I consider better than me. What I have noticed though is that it often isn't possible with some of the "elite" as they are never off the floor unless resting or taking a drink and cooling down. They are in demand, of course, but I'm not the sort to grab someone as they come off the floor looking knackered - unless I know them and know they won't mind! I never get to this point with these people. And I figure that unless I get to ask them, they're never going to get around to sking me.

I guess that this is where the percepton of cliques starts - it's not so much that these dancers won't dance with anyone else than their favourites, it's that no-one else ever gets a look in!

[dave the scaffolder]

Ah ha I am getting where these cliques are coming in now pips. On more than one occassion there have been posts stating a clique was stage left and I thought to meself, thats where we were sitting. We are not a clique, we just sit with our mates.

Now I am not a technical dancer, by any stretch of the imagination, I do however dance most tracks all night and have often had a que of girlies waiting to dance with me, why? Because I am not a serious dancer, I dance for fun and enjoyment, whoever I dance with.

I am a sh1t dancer, but I am keen as mustard tho.

Oooh I have just realised I was in a clique.

What was the question again?

DTS XXX XXX

[geoff332]

Your leads have to be clearer

No, they most definitely do not. I have to become a much worse leader to lead most beginners. The simple reason is to lead properly, the follow needs to do their part of the dance - to follow. That is it's a partnership, not a dance for the leader. If the follow doesn't follow well, then I have to compensate for their lack of following ability. That doesn't mean providing a clearer lead: it means providing a different lead, that is generally leading poor technique.

For example, to lead a first move properly, I lead the woman forward and step aside to let them pass. The should continue moving and naturally turn to face me. They will continue moving to step into my hand. With a beginner, they are far more likely not to continue moving after the initial step and less likely to turn without being led to turn. So I have to add those pieces in - lead the second step and the turn out - which is not good leading.

That means when I go back to dancing with the more experienced dancers, I have to remember to get back to leading properly: what I learn in dancing with beginners is actually very bad for me as a dancer.

generally you don't have to put anywhere near as much thought into leading a more experienced dancer

Again, that's a categorical no. With a novice, I chose from a much smaller set of moves that I can actually lead properly with someone who doesn't know good following technique. With a novice, doing some basic moves, but doing the moves well and leading them well is more than enough to give them a very good dance - one of their better dances of the night. I can do that mostly on autopilot (I probably sound horribly arrogant here - but this is an honest reflection. And it's not to say I don't enjoy dancing with novices).

With the more experienced dancer, I've got to concentrate a lot harder. In part, the concentration is around the music. In part, it's around using more interesting variations of moves. In part, it's around making sure I do everything just right. It's that sort of self-aware effort and challenge that most people actually learn the most from. I know I certainly do. If I have to pick my favourite dancers, they're all very, very good and one of the reason I like them is because I learn more and improve more dancing with them.

[djtrev]

Well .... since Lynn brought up Nina, I might as well add something that the lady herself told me a few years back - she said that she'd much rather have a dance with a beginner who knew two moves, but was happy to mess around, experiment and have fun - than with an experienced dancer who knew a hundred moves that he was only too eager to show off, but who took things too seriously.

So to answer your question - a technically better dance? Very likely, yes. A more enjoyable dance? That's a far more level playing field than you might expect.

Thats great to hear but I would assume that a dancer with 2 moves would be a very beginner and wouldn't have the first clue about how to mess around and have fun especially with someone like Nina.Lovely thought that it is I think to be taken with apinch of salt.

[geoff332]

Thats great to hear but I would assume that a dancer with 2 moves would be a very beginner and wouldn't have the first clue about how to mess around and have fun especially with someone like Nina.

Maybe. I think my dancing has improved markedly since I stopped caring about how many moves I know. I certainly do far fewer moves than I did a couple of years ago (I don't really count variations as different moves: they're just variations...), but I also think I'm a far better dancer. The reason for that is I concentrate much more on the music and the connection, rather than the moves. Some people do this far more naturally than I do (and I'm a naturally very serious person - at least initially), so they might be the sort of beginners Nina was referring to.

[djtrev]

No, they most definitely do not. I have to become a much worse leader to lead most beginners...... doing some basic moves, but doing the moves well and leading them well is more than enough to give them a very good dance - one of their better dances of the night. I can do that mostly on autopilot (I probably sound horribly arrogant here - but this is an honest reflection. And it's not to say I don't enjoy dancing with novices).

You certainly do!

[straycat]

Thats great to hear but I would assume that a dancer with 2 moves would be a very beginner and wouldn't have the first clue about how to mess around and have fun especially with someone like Nina.Lovely thought that it is I think to be taken with apinch of salt.

Well - to put it into context, she was describing two dances that she'd just just. She wasn't describing a hypothetical situation.

So you can throw that pinch of salt away, or use it on your chips or something - it's not needed here

[straycat]

No, they most definitely do not. I have to become a much worse leader to lead most beginners.

Hmmm. I try to take a very different approach - I do my utmost to provide the best lead possible for beginners. It can be harder than doing so for more advanced follows, yes, but I have two main reasons for this - firstly, I don't want to teach myself any new bad habits - getting rid of them again is too hard - and secondly, I teach. Dancing with beginners gives me a chance to demonstrate what a good lead should feel like, and that will help followers to improve. If I lead them badly, I'm teaching them to follow badly.... and nobody wins.

[CheesyRobMan]

For example, to lead a first move properly, I lead the woman forward and step aside to let them pass. The should continue moving and naturally turn to face me. They will continue moving to step into my hand. With a beginner, they are far more likely not to continue moving after the initial step and less likely to turn without being led to turn. So I have to add those pieces in - lead the second step and the turn out - which is not good leading.

Yes it is. In fact, it's better leading than if you just signal the lady to "come hither" and expect her to finish the rest of the movement herself - how is she to know what you're planning to do in the next couple of beats? A good lead is a constant lead - the only time the lead disappears is if the lady is disconnected from you (eg a spin) or if she's gone and hijacked your otherwise lovely move in order to wiggle her shapely behind in your direction

[geoff332]

Yes it is. In fact, it's better leading than if you just signal the lady to "come hither" and expect her to finish the rest of the movement herself - how is she to know what you're planning to do in the next couple of beats? A good lead is a constant lead - the only time the lead disappears is if the lady is disconnected from you (eg a spin) or if she's gone and hijacked your otherwise lovely move in order to wiggle her shapely behind in your direction

Well, we will never agree, but I simply don't agree with this. It's not how I've been taught to dance, it's not how I like to dance and it is a very limiting way to dance. If the lead has to lead every movement, then there are a huge range of moves that become impossible and it largely removes the follow from the dance. I know people do dance that way, but personally, I find it dull and uninteresting.

For me, a good lead is leading every change in direction or momentum. It isn't leading every step. This has absolutely no effect on your connection or hijacking. One can (and must) maintain a good connection without actually providing a lead.

Oh, and it's not a signal, it's a lead. A rather big difference...

Hmmm. I try to take a very different approach - I do my utmost to provide the best lead possible for beginners. It can be harder than doing so for more advanced follows, yes, but I have two main reasons for this - firstly, I don't want to teach myself any new bad habits - getting rid of them again is too hard - and secondly, I teach. Dancing with beginners gives me a chance to demonstrate what a good lead should feel like, and that will help followers to improve. If I lead them badly, I'm teaching them to follow badly.... and nobody wins.

Don't get me wrong, I do my very best to lead novices properly; I certainly don't completely change my leading style. And generally follows find me a very good lead, regardless of their level of experience. When I dance with anyone, there's a need to figure one another out - does the follow get my lead or not? And then mutually adjust for one another's dancing until it works. So that means starting out with a few basic moves, and getting a feel for things like frame and tension.

But with a novice, I spend most of my time compensating for their ability as a follow, rather than properly dancing. With a novice, that often seems to be all I'm doing.

For example, I danced with a couple of beginners at my last class and found that they were reluctant to even do a basic return. So I needed to turn them with my leading hand, accentuating that lead. If I did that with a dancer who knows how to spin properly, I'd most likely pull them off balance. But if I didn't do it with these novices, they'd either stand there or try and turn in the wrong direction, neither of which looks or feels very good.

[straycat]

Well - to put it into context, she was describing two dances that she'd just just.

Dear Lord, did I really write that? Just had.