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Thread: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    I've split this thread from the Weekender 'fuss' thread

    As its opened up yet another interesting subject!

    Lory


    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Not really because the answer is for us less accomplished dancers to improve,but by the very nature of the posts on this forum we feel at a disadvantage.
    You can constantly read on here of people who go to freetyles or weekenders to 'meet the best dancers','get a more challenging dance','dance with the teacher' etc.Now whether or not that is the intention, they are telling me that they aren't really interested in dancing with the less accomplished amongst us.
    this is taking it a bit too literally as the more confident dancers will dance with both (in your words) " the less accomplished amongst us" as well as the better dancers
    The thing is as a relatively confident dancer (depending on who i am dancing with) i only learn from dancing with those who i think are better than me and the best place to find them in any quantity is weekenders
    having said that if anyone asked me for a dance i would try to do so and put as much effort into that dance as i would if i was dancing with anyone else after all its only three minutes of my life and if i can make someone happy i will try to do so

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Come on Lory,with all due respect,you could never have an off day as far as dance goes.You may be feeling down and low but you would never be without a willing partner and I dont think that you really believe that if you are perfectly honest.
    everyone has off days when they dont dance to level they set themselves and an off day doesnt mean you cant find a willing partner its just one where you dont dance to your best
    Last edited by Lory; 20th-November-2009 at 12:46 PM.

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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    ...i only learn from dancing with those who i think are better than me ....having said that if anyone asked me for a dance i would try to do so and put as much effort into that dance as i would if i was dancing with anyone ...
    Martin, I don't really understand this. I believe you can learn just as much if not more by dancing with a less experienced dancer compared to an experienced dancer.

    Your leads have to be clearer, you are constantly trying to work out what moves to lead to give them a good dance. And generally you don't have to put anywhere near as much thought into leading a more experienced dancer. I do feel that the enjoyment through the connection would be better with a more experienced dancer but I don't think you are learning as much.

    DJ Trevor I think you should rethink your impression. Almost everybody will dance with anybody else at a weekender. I have found that the more experienced dancers are more than happy to dance with less experienced dancers. After you have attended I am sure your leading will improve. Not only that I assume from your name you are a DJ, so you know the music and that will put you heaps in front of everybody before you start.
    Last edited by ant; 20th-November-2009 at 11:25 AM.

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I don't really understand this. I believe you can learn just as much if not more by dancing with a less experienced dancer compared to an experienced dancer.

    Your leads have to be clearer, you are constantly trying to work out what moves to lead to give them a good dance. And generally you don't have to put anywhere near as much thought into leading a more experienced dancer. I do feel that the enjoyment through the connection would be better with a more experienced dancer but I don't think you are learning as much.
    I find that the better dancers are more likely to do the unexpected when dancing with them also you can both experiment more trying different things
    if you do this with a beginner or even some of the intermediates you will just confuse matters by not doing "normal moves"
    The thing is when your dancing with someone who has more experience they have much more to pass on to you whereas with the less experienced its you that is doing the passing on

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    Not really because the answer is for us less accomplished dancers to improve,but by the very nature of the posts on this forum we feel at a disadvantage.
    You can constantly read on here of people who go to freetyles or weekenders to 'meet the best dancers','get a more challenging dance','dance with the teacher' etc.Now whether or not that is the intention, they are telling me that they aren't really interested in dancing with the less accomplished amongst us.
    This would surely only be an issue if you also went on weekenders only to dance with 'the best' dancers. If you feel 'less accomplished' that means you want to dance with those you percieve as 'more accomplished' - which is what they also want to do. Most of us want to learn and improve.

    Unless you think that in over 1000 people you are absolutely the worst dancer (highly unlikely even if you feel it - the worst dancer is more likely to be some intermediate who thinks he's great and throws women roughly all over the place) then surely you can spend some time dancing with the followers who are less accomplished than you as well as seeking out the better dancers?

    In practice, most people go on weekenders to dance with lots of people, at all levels. Well I do anyway.
    Last edited by Lynn; 20th-November-2009 at 11:39 AM.

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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Martin, I don't really understand this. I believe you can learn just as much if not more by dancing with a less experienced dancer compared to an experienced dancer.
    Really? I agree with Martin. I can't understand your opinion here at all in fact! I wouldn't expect that you can learn more about football from a 10 year old playing football for his primary school football team, compared to say Frank Lampard or Christiano Ronaldo (put here in the same sentence to annoy Chelsea supporters). What is it about dance that enables beginners to teach more than an expert?

    Your leads have to be clearer
    Surely your lead should always be as clear as possible? Are you suggesting that a beginner does not understand a clear lead that it needs to be "clearer"...meaning you have to "dumb down" your lead to lead them.

    you are constantly trying to work out what moves to lead to give them a good dance. And generally you don't have to put anywhere near as much thought into leading a more experienced dancer.
    Well, yes - therefore by definition you can concentrate on just dancing - thus learning from the more experienced dancer? with the beginner, you are not dancing, but struggling to "move about a bit to their level"? No? Am I wrong here?

    I do feel that the enjoyment through the connection would be better with a more experienced dancer but I don't think you are learning as much.
    If you are "constantly trying to work out what moves to lead". how on earth can that mean you're learning more ? its not the beginner that suggests the moves - it's you. So you already know what you are doing and are severly restricted in your dance by being forced to find something they will understand.
    Its like you are saying you can learn more of a foreign language from trying to speak to someone who barely speaks it compared to a native speaker? it makes on sense to me at all.

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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Really? I agree with Martin. I can't understand your opinion here at all in fact! I wouldn't expect that you can learn more about football from a 10 year old playing football for his primary school football team, compared to say Frank Lampard or Christiano Ronaldo (put here in the same sentence to annoy Chelsea supporters). What is it about dance that enables beginners to teach more than an expert?.
    I would suggest if you are playing a game of football with Lampard or Ronaldo you will not learn anything. They will be running you ragged and you won't get a touch of the ball. However if you played football with a 10 year old, you would have to put on your thinking cap to make it more interesting for them and by engaging in that process you will learn.



    Surely your lead should always be as clear as possible? Are you suggesting that a beginner does not understand a clear lead that it needs to be "clearer"...meaning you have to "dumb down" your lead to lead them.
    I never said dumb down. I agree that our lead should always be clear but this is in relation to the follower we are dancing with. The less expereienced the dancer the more effort you would normally put into the lead.


    Well, yes - therefore by definition you can concentrate on just dancing - thus learning from the more experienced dancer? with the beginner, you are not dancing, but struggling to "move about a bit to their level"? No? Am I wrong here?
    I would suggest that unless that dancer is of an exceptionally high standard the amount learning would be negligable.



    If you are "constantly trying to work out what moves to lead". how on earth can that mean you're learning more ? its not the beginner that suggests the moves - it's you. So you already know what you are doing and are severly restricted in your dance by being forced to find something they will understand.
    As I said the earlier the exercise of engaging your mind will result in you learning. Just because you know what you want it does not mean that he follower do as you require, this is especially so with a beginner. Hence you will have to find different ways of leading the move you intended, this is a learning process.


    Its like you are saying you can learn more of a foreign language from trying to speak to someone who barely speaks it compared to a native speaker? it makes on sense to me at all
    I don't think we are comparing like for like.

    You are comparing yourself as the pupil in the language scenario and as the more experienced person in the dancing scenario.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    I think the scope for learning is similar when dancing with people who are any of more, less or similarly accomplished to yourself. The crucial thing is that the learning is different. What you can learn when dancing with beginners, say, is how to dance well (or badly) with beginners and that may have little or no application to dancing well with more experienced and accomplished partners.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    I learn different things from both..

    The more experienced dancers give me the opportunity/challenge

    • to test my reaction times by being responsive to all things unexpected
    • to emphasis the phrasing of music
    • to play within the structure of the dance
    • to vary the speed
    • to backlead them into following 'me'


    The less experienced dancer gives me the opportunity/challenge

    • to make basic moves stylish
    • to practice syncopations
    • to give them confidence
    • to make 4 moves interesting
    • to hone the art of 'compensating' for their mistakes.. and to make them feel good about themselves


    When dancing with a relative beginner, who only has, say 10-12 moves, I find I can very quickly pick up on how they structure their dance, how they fit the moves together and its easy to know what's coming next, so, after we've done the rounds a few times and I've made a judgement call as to whether they're up to being 'pushed' a little .. I'll start to thrown in some little 'extras'

    I generally ease up a little - if they scream!
    Last edited by Lory; 20th-November-2009 at 01:11 PM.
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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    When dancing with a relative beginner, who only has, say 10-12 moves
    I hope to reach that stage one day.


    2-moves Gav.

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    I don't learn anything from dancing from either experienced or inexperienced dancers, although I may improve my technique, my lead changes radically from as light as a feather to practically dragging my partner around the dancefloor. what I get out off the dance is a,personal, the joy of being as one with my partner with the bond between us being the music and b, empathic, the spoken or felt feeling that my partner has just had a wonderfull dance, obviously I'm still waiting for either a or b to happen
    Nick

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    I hope to reach that stage one day.


    2-moves Gav.
    Aye, just when I was beginning to think I might be getting there .........

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    I think you can learn equal amounts from more and less experienced dancers. Lory's breakdown was pretty good - I find that from experienced dancers I learn how to play about more, how to dance more musically, and how to perform more challenging moves that a beginner (through no fault of their own) wouldn't be able to follow yet. From beginner dancers I learn how to give a clearer lead, how to accommodate someone who moves differently, and how to keep the same 4-6 moves interesting. I've had really satisfying dances with both great dancers and first-week beginners - it's especially gratifying when I tell a new lady that not only did she follow the beginners' moves, she handled some simple intermediate ones too without even realising - generally they burst into a big silly grin and dancing with more experienced follows (or leads) occasionally results in that lovely tingly feeling...

    Trying-not-to-be-so-negative CRM

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Dance with everyone refuse nobody and enjoy the lot.

    DTS XXX XXX

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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I would suggest if you are playing a game of football with Lampard or Ronaldo you will not learn anything. They will be running you ragged and you won't get a touch of the ball. However if you played football with a 10 year old, you would have to put on your thinking cap to make it more interesting for them and by engaging in that process you will learn.
    I wasn't talking about actually playing football with professionals that would be silly, i meant in general terms of ability to learn from them. If a 10 year old or Ronaldo were to give you tips on football - whos advice would be better? In anything, I'd go with the experts over the beginners.

    I never said dumb down. I agree that our lead should always be clear but this is in relation to the follower we are dancing with. The less expereienced the dancer the more effort you would normally put into the lead.
    I know you never said "dumb down", I said "dumb down", If your, normally clear, lead is not "clear enough" then you ARE dumbing it down in order they can understand it. To put effort into something that should be effortless is not a positive step i would say.


    I would suggest that unless that dancer is of an exceptionally high standard the amount learning would be negligable.
    I would disagree; where you can concentrate purely on the dancing, rather than fumbling over moves your partner knows by rote, your dancing can only improve.

    As I said the earlier the exercise of engaging your mind will result in you learning. Just because you know what you want it does not mean that he follower do as you require, this is especially so with a beginner. Hence you will have to find different ways of leading the move you intended, this is a learning process.
    No it isn't. Or rather yes it is, but not in the way you mean : you are simply learning how to lead beginners to their level of ability to follow, and are not improving your own dancing in the slightest. How many people reading a bedtime story to a four year old are "engaging their mind" and learning about the English language to any useful degree? I don't think its too ridiculous to use that comparison when talking about a dancer who has been dancing for 5 years dancing with a beginner on their 3rd class.

    I don't think we are comparing like for like.
    Who is "we". I AM comparing like for like.

    You are comparing yourself as the pupil in the language scenario and as the more experienced person in the dancing scenario.
    No I am not, what gave you that idea? In my scenario you can speak the language to a reasonable degree but according to you, you would be better to further your understanding of the language by conversing with someone that really struggles, rather than a native speaker. And all because using much simplified words with the beginner speaker will, again according to you, "engage your mind" and "result in you learning"...learning what? how to say "my hovercraft is full of eels"? It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I learn different things from both..

    The more experienced dancers give me the opportunity/challenge

    • to test my reaction times by being responsive to all things unexpected
    • to emphasis the phrasing of music
    • to play within the structure of the dance
    • to vary the speed
    • to backlead them into following 'me'


    The less experienced dancer gives me the opportunity/challenge

    • to make basic moves stylish
    • to practice syncopations
    • to give them confidence
    • to make 4 moves interesting
    • to hone the art of 'compensating' for their mistakes.. and to make them feel good about themselves
    I would suggest that none of your list of things you "learn" from beginners, have you actually learning anything that you wouldn't perform better with a more experienced dancer

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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Your leads have to be clearer, you are constantly trying to work out what moves to lead to give them a good dance. And generally you don't have to put anywhere near as much thought into leading a more experienced dancer. I do feel that the enjoyment through the connection would be better with a more experienced dancer but I don't think you are learning as much.
    I think... that if you regard the leader's role as simply leading a follower through a set of moves, I can understand this viewpoint.

    If you regard leading as dancing with a follower - then, for reasons I don't need to go into (I'd only be repeating what people like DS have already said), I cannot understand it at all.

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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Straycat come on back over to the other thread, Frodo is being duffed up by the girls.

    You're a square jawed, barrel chested, slim in the waist and broad in the shoulders type, just the fellow me and Frodo need in our corner.

    What do you say mate? We can't let the girls win, can we?

    See you there mate. Bring DS with you, he's useful in a fight.

    DTS XXX XXX

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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by djtrev View Post
    You can constantly read on here of people who go to freetyles or weekenders to 'meet the best dancers','get a more challenging dance','dance with the teacher' etc.Now whether or not that is the intention, they are telling me that they aren't really interested in dancing with the less accomplished amongst us.
    I was chatting recently to a very lovely lady, who happens to be ... probably the best blues dancer I've ever met, not to mention one of the best blues teachers I've ever come across. The first time I ever danced with her, I'd no idea who she was... and it's a dance that, three years on, still sends shivers down my spine to think about. One of the four best dances I've ever had.

    The second time I danced with her, I did know who she was, and I became ridiculously nervous, danced / led very badly, and it was a terrible dance (from my perspective, anyway). Go figure.

    All this is by way of putting what she told me into context - which was simply that on a lot of nights when she was at an unfamiliar venue, if she didn't get up and start asking people to dance, then quite often no-one would ask her, mostly because they were too scared. And she was there to dance, so she'd ask anyone and everyone.

    At Rock Bottoms in September, I watched another of the rockstars (dance gods, call them what you will) dance to every single track for a solid hour, with anyone that asked (or, failing that, who was nearby) - beginner, intermediate, expert, didn't matter - and dance every dance to the max, with a happy smile on her face.

    Most people go to events to dance, plain and simple, and almost everyone gets enjoyment from dancing with beginners and experts alike. Sure - there are a very few for whom that isn't the case, but that's the exception, not the rule, and I'd suggest that they more than anyone are the ones who miss out.
    Last edited by straycat; 20th-November-2009 at 05:06 PM.

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I would suggest that none of your list of things you "learn" from beginners, have you actually learning anything that you wouldn't perform better with a more experienced dancer
    Your right but I wasn't talking about 'performing'

    I was talking about a holistic experience, one where I learn how I can make the experience better for them.
    One where I can assist the beginner to be the best they can possibly be and enhance their dance by bringing my stuff in, without putting them off.... hopefully

    Also, when I'm dancing with a very experienced dancer, someone who keeps me very firmly on my toes, I won't get the chance to experiment with syncopations etc, these have to be instilled into my muscle memory before I can use them confidently!
    And one way of doing this, is to dance with a beginner who only knows a few moves and use that time to practise over and over again. And the good thing is, 'they' won't notice, bless them!

    But if you practice the same syncopation over and over when your dancing with a professional, (to me) it would feel like a bit of a waste of 'their skills'
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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Weekenders - What's all the fuss about??

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    I
    Most people go to events to dance, plain and simple, and almost everyone gets enjoyment from dancing with beginners and experts alike.
    Spot on!

    What could bring more joy, than a beginner saying "you made my night' or "I didn't know I could do that"

    At Camber, I was dancing with a certain forumite (who's not a beginner, but fairly new to blues) and he said, "woooo nobody's ever done that to me before' ( I was assisting him to spin faster in closed hold) and 'his' excitement gave 'me' a great deal of joy!

    Then he fell asleep!
    Last edited by Lory; 20th-November-2009 at 05:13 PM.
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    Re: Who do you learn most from - the 'more' or 'less' experienced dancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    But if you practice the same syncopation over and over when your dancing with a professional, (to me) it would feel like a bit of a waste of 'their skills'
    Well - if you dance with a good enough leader, and start doing that syncopation, you may find that they start to copy you, practice it with you, then lead you on to new variations of that syncopation which you'd not done before - which might lead you to think up new variations - and so it goes. Which can be learning at its most exciting...

    And yes - before you ask - I have had dances like that, so this isn't just my imagination running away with me

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