View Poll Results: What would you prefer ?

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  • I go to weekenders for social and dancing only

    13 56.52%
  • I go to weekenders for everything it offers

    11 47.83%
  • Dancing only PLUS pre-paid master classes

    2 8.70%
  • Charge more for the classes option to offset price

    2 8.70%
  • Not cost effective to do

    1 4.35%
  • Not bothered either way

    1 4.35%
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Thread: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

  1. #1
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    I prefer weekenders without classes (such as this weekend at the Rhythm Riot) there are few classes I go to at Modern Jive weekends, for two reasons, lack of sleep or the fact I have been dancing for 15 years now and don't really want to learn any more.

    However, most UK weekends are priced to include classes and can understand why commercially .......... but would they loose lots of money if they had a 'dance only' option

    At Rhythm Riot, you pay for the chalet (accomodation) then pay an extra price for entry into the main building

    What do forumites think, especially organisers ????


    --ooOoo--
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    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    However, most UK weekends are priced to include classes and can understand why commercially .......... but would they loose lots of money if they had a 'dance only' option
    Minnie I assume that you think weekenders will be cheaper if the pricing structure was changed in the manner you suggest.

    However I don't think it will. I suspect the cost to Ceroc of laying on the classes, for instance, is relatively small. They use their own teachers and so the only major additional cost would the headline teachers and spread over 1500-2000 people, this would add very little to the individual cost.

    Therefore it may result a price increase overall because
    1 There may be less people willing to attend and so the loss of that revenue may need to be passed on
    2 The additional administration required will have to be costed in
    3 You would have to employ more DJ's

    IMO and experience a big attraction for people attending weekenders to begin with is the availability of all the workshops. If this taken away they may not attend and so you are loosing the main source of new attendees. In time this may make these events uneconomic.

    I have had a look at the Rhythm Riot website and their standard charge is £92 for an event pass which excludes accomodation and classes. The accommodation prices are anything from another £30 with 7 people in a two bedroom appartment to £78 for single occupancy. When you add the prices together they are more expensive that what Ceroc charge and you have the availablility of the workshops as well with Ceroc.
    Last edited by ant; 20th-November-2009 at 11:58 AM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Minnie I assume that you think weekenders will be cheaper if the pricing structure was changed in the manner you suggest.
    .....


    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    However I don't think it will. I suspect the cost to Ceroc of laying on the classes, for instance, is relatively small. They use their own teachers and so the only major additional cost would the headline teachers and spread over 1500-2000 people, this would add very little to the individual cost...
    True........... I'm with you on that

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    .....I have had a look at the Rhythm Riot website and their standard charge is £92 for an event pass which excludes accomodation and classes. The accommodation prices are anything from another £30 with 7 people in a two bedroom appartment to £78 for single occupancy. When you add the prices together they are more expensive that what Ceroc charge and you have the availablility of the workshops as well with Ceroc.
    You are looking at the 'now' prices - I only paid £82 for my pass, we have a top luxury chalet which cost £265 - and you divide that equally for how many are sharing (5/£265 = £53) = £135 - I am paying for top bands from all over the WORLD plus international DJs - personally that is good value for money, however I suppose I am swopping the love for live music for classes (and dancing with the best swing & 40's dancers from the UK and the Continent)

    BTW they do special offers for people who are sharing the basic accomodation - so it could (if you don't mind it) work out very very cheap.

    Sorry I shouldn't have used the Riot as a comparison as the don't give you the classes option anyway


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Sorry I shouldn't have used the Riot as a comparison as the don't give you the classes option anyway
    I think it is a good example of how things can be done differently and still be very successful.

  5. #5
    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    £135 - I am paying for top bands from all over the WORLD plus international DJs - personally that is good value for money, however I suppose I am swopping the love for live music for classes (and dancing with the best swing & 40's dancers from the UK and the Continent

    Sorry I shouldn't have used the Riot as a comparison as the don't give you the classes option anyway )
    I think Rhythm Riot is a unique international event and is not a good comparison to Ceroc weekenders as the emphisis is different and the customer bases are secured in a different ways.

    I attend The Tango Mango (this is a much smaller event maybe 150 attendees maximum)

    The price structure of a three day attendee and so weekender length is as follows:

    1 £30 for the dance pass. You cannot dance for about 4 hours between 10:00am and 11:30pm though due to classes and meals.

    2 You pay extra for the accomodation. On site accomodation is dorm style and very rough and costs £5 per night. A small self catering place near to the site would work out at about £15 per person. So say £45 for three nights.

    3 You will pay £6 for large group lessons, no more than 16 couples and £9 for small group lessons no more than 6 couples. You can attend up to 3 group lessons a day. If you did the maximum number of lessons this would cost £18 -£21 per day, say £18.

    The overall cost would be £30+£45+£18x3=£129.

    However you are not getting dancing from 12:00noon until 8:00am the next day and you are not getting unintereupted dancing once the dancing starts, you are only getting 3 hours of lessons and non onsite accommodation. You are getting much smaller classes

    With the large weekenders the organisers have a large fixed cost, it includes the accommodation and dance venues and this has to be covered. The organsier in the above scenario has a lower fixed cost as this covers just the dance venues.

    What the above model does do however is to shift the cost of the weekender onto the people who are taking the lessons. Whether this is good or not depends on your personal situation as a customer, whether you value smaller classes and who you want to cater for as an organiser.
    Last edited by ant; 20th-November-2009 at 01:13 PM.

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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I suspect the cost to Ceroc of laying on the classes, for instance, is relatively small. They use their own teachers
    Ceroc do actually pay their teachers you know

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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Ceroc do actually pay their teachers you know

    yeah, but not much

  8. #8
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    ....stuff about RR...... and is not a good comparison to Ceroc weekenders as the emphisis is different and the customer bases are secured in a different ways......
    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M
    I prefer weekenders without classes ......etc etc .
    once again I was referring to ALL dance weekends that include classes in their pricing


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    once again I was referring to ALL dance weekends that include classes in their pricing
    We knew what you meant - perhaps ant is ceroc obsessed

  10. #10
    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    We knew what you meant - perhaps ant is ceroc obsessed
    Well then DS, give an example of a non Ceroc weekender MJ or otherwise, that uses a different model, so we can discuss it. I did the best I could with Tango Mango.
    The only other ones that I know that don't have the free classes model are a couple of swing ones, Rhythm Riot and Clapham over the August bank holiday. As Minnie has already said RR is not the best example of what she is trying to achieve because it does not save any money and Clapham is just as expensive if you add off site accommadation. The reason being in both these examples is a great deal of money is spent on bringing in live bands as a replacement of daytime dance lessons.

    Another thought Minnie. Being purely selfish. If there were no free classes then the daytime freestyles at Southport on the terrace will be mobbed and will affect the dance experience accordingly.

    PS-DS there arn't many large scale weekenders around relating to MJ that are not Ceroc weekend and those that are use the same model

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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Well then DS, give an example of a non Ceroc weekender MJ or otherwise, that uses a different model, so we can discuss it. I did the best I could with Tango Mango.
    From the Swing dance world...
    London Balboa Festival - you can book for the whole package, or pay for just for the social dancing. Live music too - the last couple of years, they flew a top swing band over from the States, which can't have been cheap.
    Various Lindy exchanges - the format for these is always loads of social dancing, and no classes, accommodation in the form of hosting provided by local dancers. Usually very cheap.
    Goodnight Sweetheart (Lindy) - priority to those booking workshops, but they'll sell individual evening tickets if there's any spaces left over. Although, to be fair, that doesn't generally happen.
    DJam (Lindy) - seperate pricing for those just wanting to social dance, and those wanting to do the workshops as well.

    I've been abroad to a number of international Lindy events now, and ALX aside (exchange, so no workshops), they all had options for doing the whole shebang, or opting for only the social dancing.

  12. #12
    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    once again I was referring to ALL dance weekends that include classes in their pricing
    Minnie are you now saying that large scale dance weekenders should have a basic price for accomodation and the dancing, with an add on price for lessons? Can you give any example of current large scale weekender of the type of type you have in mind.

    I see a number of problems with your model:

    1 The additional risk to the organisers. Currently when an organiser costs out their weekender I assume they know their costs, they add on thier profit and structure the event prices accordingly.

    2 How much would they reduce the basic event and accomodation price by if lessons were an add on. If as part of their profit and cost recoup they are relying on the sale of lessons, this introduces an unknown and therefore increases their commercial exposure, so I would suggest to you the price reduction would be minimal.

    3 As your example of RR has shown the price charged for a large scale weekender excluding lessons is comparable to weekenders with free classes.

    4 What will attendees do during the day other than dance, if there are no other activities on offer. If this is the only daytime option are you not then turning weekenders structured in this way into marathons. I know some dance styles that do weekender marathons, as I am sure you do and they are very popular with some people. But how big is their appeal?

    My view of the weekender market is as follows:

    Large scale weekenders charge a single price. This may include free lessons or live perforances but the risk of structuring the event according to each part and charging for these on the day will increase the commercial risk to organisers, probabally to an unacceptable if this is accompanied by price reductions for the rest of the event and add substantually to their administration.

    Smaller weekenders are more specialised. Some charge on an overall basis some on bit by bit basis (where this happens they sometimes offer an overall ticket at a discount). At these smaller weekenders the classes are smaller and the learning experience generally better.

    and finally at the risk of incurrig DS's backlash,
    In part are Ceroc not moving towards a middle ground here. They are offering weekenders with free lessons but at the same time offering masterclasses that are paid for.
    Last edited by ant; 23rd-November-2009 at 03:44 PM.

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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    From the Swing dance world...
    whole shebang, or opting for only the social dancing.
    Stray can you give any idea of prices and sizes of these events, especially any of the larger ones and even more so where they are held at one of the big holiday camps
    Last edited by ant; 23rd-November-2009 at 03:52 PM.

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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    Stray can you give any idea of prices and sizes of these events, especially any of the larger ones and even more so where they are held at one of the big holiday camps
    OK - well - let's go for the biggest two that I've been to, which are international events, both in Sweden. Prices are very approximate.

    Herrang - which lasts for a month, but the less than superhuman go for a week at a time. There's usually about a thousand people there at any one time.

    All classes (six days worth of either Lindy, Balboa, tap or jazz) & social dancing (seven nights): £320. Accommodation... varies from free to expensive, depending on how unluxurious you want it. Food - £80 for the week (breakfast & supper - you fend for yourself for lunch) Evenings only - £17 per evening. 10-12 hours of dancing available most nights. No daytime social dancing. Held in a mosquito-infested retirement village miles from anywhere. Generally hosts many of the best swing dance teachers and dancers in the world.

    Snowball - Stockholm - four days of classes (Balboa & Lindy), six nights of social dancing.

    All classes and all evenings, (iirc, this amounts to 7 hours worth a day, if you do everything) - about £210
    One dance track (4.5 hours a day) and no social dancing - £150
    One dance track with social dancing - £210
    Evenings only - about £110
    Accommodation & food - extra, but you arrange that seperately, so doesn't figure in the organisers' balance sheets.

    Does that give a reasonable idea?

  15. #15
    Registered User ant's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat View Post
    Herrang -There's usually about a thousand people there at any one time.

    All classes (six days worth of either Lindy, Balboa, tap or jazz) & social dancing (seven nights): £320. Accommodation... varies from free to expensive, depending on how unluxurious you want it. Food - £80 for the week (breakfast & supper - you fend for yourself for lunch) Evenings only - £17 per evening. 10-12 hours of dancing available most nights. No daytime social dancing. Held in a mosquito-infested retirement village miles from anywhere. Generally hosts many of the best swing dance teachers and dancers in the world.
    This is very much in line with a Tango event, although not as many people.

    Looking at the equivalent cost for an MJ holiday camp weekender, would it be fair to say

    A three day ticket would cost say £320/7 x 3 = £137. For this the accommodation, based upon my Tango experience will be own bedding on a floor. To get basic self catereing it would cost say £15 per night.

    So overall cost for 3 nights would be £137+£15x3=£182.
    The evening only option for 3 nights with basic self catering will cost say £97




    Snowball - Stockholm - four days of classes (Balboa & Lindy), six nights of social dancing.

    All classes and all evenings, (iirc, this amounts to 7 hours worth a day, if you do everything) - about £210
    One dance track (4.5 hours a day) and no social dancing - £150
    One dance track with social dancing - £210
    Evenings only - about £110
    Accommodation & food - extra, but you arrange that seperately, so doesn't figure in the organisers' balance sheets.
    I don't understand the term "dance track".

    However the event cost of £210 equated to a weekender would be say
    (£210-two evenings say - £30) x 3/4 = £135 without accommodation

    here the evening only option is £110. Can that be cheaper by limiting the nights?

    Does that give a reasonable idea?
    I would say an average price for a holiday camp MJ weekender is say £100 and this includes 3 nights of dancing and accomadation and 2 full days of lesssons.

    I have also looked at Salsa weekenders in the past, these run along very similar lines to MJ weekenders and the prices are similar.

    Based upon the examples so far there is very scope for obtaining a price reduction by changing the event pricing model and this does not consider SWAS and gender balancing discounts available on Ceroc weekenders.

    IMO you may be able to reduce the price of attending smaller weekenders where the organisers don't have to pay up front for the accomadation as well but only if you can organise accomodation with a friend.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by ant
    I would say an average price for a holiday camp MJ weekender is say £100 and this includes 3 nights of dancing and accomadation and 2 full days of lesssons.
    Exactly and that is fantastic value, for those wanting classes - but not for those who don't - my point was, would it be possible to restructure the pricing so the organisers still made the same money, by moving the costs around so that those who want the classes paid a little extra ???


    --ooOoo--
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    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    I prefer weekenders without classes (such as this weekend at the Rhythm Riot) there are few classes I go to at Modern Jive weekends, for two reasons, lack of sleep or the fact I have been dancing for 15 years now and don't really want to learn any more.
    Slightly sad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    However, most UK weekends are priced to include classes and can understand why commercially .......... but would they loose lots of money if they had a 'dance only' option
    In one way a fantastic idea. They could then be gender balanced separately so you wouldn't have the problem of too many ladies in freestyle and too few in classes.


    On the other hand (outside the learning/inspiration role) one role classes have is a social mixing role.

    To fulfil that role it is nice not just to see classes, but classes attractive to a range of levels (not just beginners).

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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Exactly and that is fantastic value, for those wanting classes - but not for those who don't
    Ceroc tried something a bit like this at the 2nd Breeze event. You could get a reduction by only being able to do the classes and dance in the blues room, but were not allowed into the main room for dancing or classes at all.

    Only a handful of people opted for the reduced price option, so Ceroc didn't even bother to police it.

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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by ant View Post
    I don't understand the term "dance track".
    Dance track... means the set of workshops you sign up for. So for Snowball (for example), you can do the Lindy track, the Balboa track, or both. One track amounts to ten hours of workshops over four days. Whichever option you choose, you'd also be able to do two taster classes per day.

    This brings me to... what makes these workshops so different from an MJ weekender? A few things. (I suspect this will have a lot in common with Tango & WCS events?)

    Levels. There are a lot of levels (Snowball has five, some have more), carefully defined, and to get into Advanced and above, you generally need to audition. Progression is much easier if everyone in a class is of a similar standard.
    Class sizes: fairly small - around 60 odd tends to be the max, I believe. I might be guesstimating wrongly here, but it gives a rough idea.
    Continuity: one gets at least two classes with each teaching couple, and in successive classes, they generally build on what came before.
    People: the people doing these workshops tend to be there to learn - you get a bit of a bootcamp mentality. When everyone's in that frame of mind, it makes for an amazing learning environment.
    Teachers: Quite a few events are partly defined by their teacher line-up, and the standard of teaching at many of these events is nothing short of outstanding.
    Last edited by straycat; 24th-November-2009 at 10:35 AM.

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    Re: Weekender Classes/Dancing ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Exactly and that is fantastic value, for those wanting classes - but not for those who don't - my point was, would it be possible to restructure the pricing so the organisers still made the same money, by moving the costs around so that those who want the classes paid a little extra ???
    I understand your theory behind this, but I don't see how it can work on a MJ (let's presume standard ceroc, rather than something like Lux which you could choose evening only) weekender as they currently stand - ie with everyone able to decide on the day what they fancy doing.

    I'm quite happy with what I'm paying for weekenders. Yes, I do classes, but not as many as I did in the past, but I wouldn't want to sign up in advance for classes at ceroc/JA weekenders. At the moment, I can decide if I want to do the class on the day, can drop out if there's a massive gender imbalance or if I don't find it useful/interesting/there's horrendous people in a rotation who have no idea, or can join in if it's raining/flooded outside at the time i wanted to leave for a break. I don't particularly do much (if any) freestyle during the day, because it's all very based round socialising which is fine if you know lots of people there, but not if you don't and/or too reserved to launch straight in to groups there dancing/drinking/talking together.

    I'd probably do less of the standard large classes if I had a fixed partner and I could pay for masterclasses or private lessons, in which case it makes sense to have packages where you could pay for your basic accommodation & freestyle then choose the specific classes on top. It would make things really complicated where the price paid is for an appartment where then the cost is just split amongst those staying there. Having a package idea would potentially mean better chance of having people attending classes/workshops who were working at a similar level & speed, rather than mass classes where an intermediate could be just up from beginner or a teacher who wants a few more move ideas, but only cater for the middle ground.

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