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Thread: Is the source of the choreography relevant in competitions?

  1. #21
    Papa Smurf
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    Re: Is the source of the choreography relevant in competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Personally, I would like to see a declaration on the entry form to state that the work being danced in the competition is the work of the people performing it, and that dancing other peoples choreography is not allowed.
    I see what you are saying, but i would limit that to "professional choreography". For a quick turn around (6 weeks), a lot of the good cabarets I've been involved with are mainly choreographed by one person , so if that person drops out as a dancer or a new group of people take that choreography up, i wouldn't see anything wrong with that - as long as everyone involved is an amateur and does not make their living from dance.

    Another scenario - 2 couples perform routines equally brilliantly in their showmanship, technical ability, performance etc. One couple choreographed the routine themselves totally, the others 'bought' the routine, and had no hand in the choreography at all. The bought routine is better choreography, and hence wins.
    If, as you say, all dancers are perfect on the day and it is just purely down to the choreography then the weaker choreography deserves to lose, it's up to the competition organisers to sort out rules to prevent "certain types of choreography". But i think a talented amateur choreographer is going to be good enough to stand up to professional choreographer and the judges may well prefer it. And we ARE talking amateurs here, you're not going to get the cast from a broadway musical entering the Blackpool competition. and...where are these perfect dancers you speak of that make choreography the only difference?

    I have been asked previously to choreograph routines for people to use for competitions, and I have refused. I have no problem in helping people polish up their own routines, or possibly even suggesting and/or teaching a move for the routine (and of course, here it becomes difficult to draw a line), but full on choreography, no.
    i don't see why, but thats your choice.

    You teach people how to write essays for exams, but you don't actually write the essay for the exam for them (for example).
    People have exams on other peoples work, should Shakespeare not have bothered writing anything so that English exams could not ask us to interpret them? Its ALL about interrpetation isn't it ?

    (Yes i am likening your choreography abilities to Shakespeare - no need to thank me )


    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    I’m not that interested in the rules as they stand. I’m trying to explore and debate what I regard as the slightly grey areas and morally ambiguous parts of MJ competition.
    I don't see any "grey areas" or "morally ambiguous parts" at all.

    I’d be interested to know why you think that, is it because of the rules as they stand?
    No. The rules for competitions do not bother about this because it is not a problem. It is much more likely that plagiarism is a problem, and rules do tend to mention that.


    I think there’s a world of difference between receiving a little feedback/coaching from people better than you and having nearly the whole thing done by professionals.
    I agree. But its highly unlikely in an amateur competition that a group will receive professional choreography AND DO IT JUSTICE. If they do, fine, the crowd will be in for a treat and the competition organisers will probably change the rules to dissallow this in the next competition - moreover, the organisers would request that such pro cabaret teams do such future cabarets as a seperate demo outwith the competition.

    Frankly, if you enter a team cabaret competition and discover the winning team is 10 times better than you - tough! If they are not breaking the rules, they deserve the placing they get.


    I like the essay analogy here. How about this? A Nobel Laureate writes an essay for somebody else, who then proceeds to copy it word for word in their best handwriting and presents it as their own work. Since they ‘wrote’ it themselves it must be okay!
    Surely that would be plagarism, not interpretation - as in dance.

    Great idea, but just like the Olympics you’d get the ‘cheats’ who said they were ‘clean’. There’s no blood/urine test available for competitors suspected of buying in an entire routine.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    Right, you obviously think this is serious enough : what MJ competitions have had literally "bought in" professionally choreographed routines that have been performed and won the competition for the group performing it? Any? i don't know of any? I think you're entire premise here is based along the lines of "I think we should ban unicorns from buying alcopops"

  2. #22
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    Re: Is the source of the choreography relevant in competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    If it’s purely a dance competition surely we need to strip out all of the judging criteria that award marks for anything to do with the choreography.
    How do you define "Choreography"? and how can you split it from the rest of the dancing?

  3. #23
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    Re: Is the source of the choreography relevant in competitions?

    Gadget baby we will be meeting soon, bring vaseline.

    DTS XX XXXX

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    Re: Is the source of the choreography relevant in competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I agree. But its highly unlikely in an amateur competition that a group will receive professional choreography AND DO IT JUSTICE. If they do, fine, the crowd will be in for a treat and the competition organisers will probably change the rules to dissallow this in the next competition - moreover, the organisers would request that such pro cabaret teams do such future cabarets as a seperate demo outwith the competition.


    I never intended to discuss group categories such as team-cabaret. In my opening post I specifically referred to couples. A-Chance-To-Dance ‘Spotlight’ is an example of the category I intended to discuss here. Apologies if I didn’t make this sufficiently clear from the outset. As for the use of professional choreography in group/cabaret events, I don’t have any views either one way or the other on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Right, you obviously think this is serious enough


    No, not really. From the moment I conceived this thread I considered it to be a somewhat theoretical debate, and, in my second post I acknowledge that. My main objective was to start a little discussion, to establish, out of curiosity, what the spectrum of opinion looked like on the buying in of professional choreography within a specific competition category.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    How do you define "Choreography"? and how can you split it from the rest of the dancing?


    I don’t think it can be split cleanly, and in any case, not without removing large sections of established judging criteria. This is the crux of it all. In the freestyle categories it is self evident that the couple competing are doing their own choreography. They have no choice but to do it all there and then, on-the-fly. In freestyle, the dancing and the choreography are inextricably linked and are judged together; I consider that to be appropriate. Contrast freestyle categories with couples dancing pre-rehearsed and highly choreographed routines. In the choreographed routines nobody can determine the true source of the creativity. I don’t think that’s fair, and it seems at odds with the judging of freestyle categories.

    Right, I’ll shut up now!

  5. #25
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    Re: Is the source of the choreography relevant in competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    I never intended to discuss group categories such as team-cabaret. In my opening post I specifically referred to couples. A-Chance-To-Dance ‘Spotlight’ is an example of the category I intended to discuss here.
    I wouldn't consider that a huge difference to be honest - 2 people or 12 people ? my thoughts are pretty much the same.

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    Re: Is the source of the choreography relevant in competitions?

    It rather dismayed me on on a trip to the UK, to see a team routine and a showcase being performed at UK comps that was corried in Aus.
    (they were not even Aus comp standard, but standard ball routines)

    At that time ball routines in Aus were comparible to UK comp winning routines, so they did well.

    I wondered why these people needed to take other people's work (paid for or not) and display it at a comp.

    I would have prefered to see the performers, bring some of thier own work into what they do.

    Sure get advice, get somone to help you, but bring a bit of you into it.

    I too have been asked to corrie a routine for a couple, I said I will work with you and help you with the structure, but you must bring something of yourself into what you want to do. I will not hand you a complete routine for you to dance.

    In an ideal world I would like to see something of the dancers in what they dance (showcase).

    [Sure in 2003 I was involved in a team routine in the UK, corried in Aus, but the corrie chick was part of the team and it was taught to the UK couples in the few days leading up to the comp. 2 couples from Aus and 2 couples from UK.]

    As to showcase though, if the corrie is not your own, then get it anounced who corried it. If there is marking for corrie... well zero for corrie... coz they did not corrie it themselves.

  7. #27
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    Re: Is the source of the choreography relevant in competitions?

    Martin, all that talk of Corrie is likely to confuse the life out of people who wonder what Coronation Street has to do with MJ Competitions

  8. #28
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    Re: Is the source of the choreography relevant in competitions?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Martin, all that talk of Corrie is likely to confuse the life out of people who wonder what Coronation Street has to do with MJ Competitions



    Thing is I cannot spell very well.... If I try for that long word, I am sure to get it wrong most times

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