Is the source of the choreography relevant in competitions?

[Bubble]

Is the source of the choreography relevant in competitions?

In competition categories where a couple dance a choreographed routine to their own choice of music does the source of the choreography, creativity, and originality matter?

Imagine this slightly unlikely, but not altogether impossible situation.

Couple A.
Exceptionally talented dancers, they give a dazzling performance, are clearly the favourites with both the judges and the spectators. However, for whatever reason they have little aptitude for or interest in choreography and the larger part of their act was formulated and directed by a third party choreographer.

Couple B.
Also very talented but give a slightly less polished performance than Couple A. Their entire performance was their own making with no help or direction from a third party.

I can already guess which couple will probably win.

What I want to know is, which couple most deserve to win and why?

Does the creativity of the couple you see receiving the gold medal matter at all or is it only about the performance on the day?

[daveb9000]

I guess it has to be about performance on the day as neither the judges nor the audience could know that the couple did or did not choreograph the routine themselves. As long as the choreography counts for less than half of the final mark, then it should still be as fair a contest as it can be.

[Alan Doyle]

Does the creativity of the couple you see receiving the gold medal matter at all or is it only about the performance on the day?

You're judged on your performance on the day...

[Bubble]

I guess it has to be about performance on the day as neither the judges nor the audience could know that the couple did or did not choreograph the routine themselves. As long as the choreography counts for less than half of the final mark, then it should still be as fair a contest as it can be.

You're judged on your performance on the day...

Sorry! Perhaps I'm being too theoretical here. What I mean is:

If all the facts were known and everyone knew everything about each competitors preparation, would the source of the chroreography matter?

Who really *deserves* to win out of the two couples?

I realise this would be all but impossible to police but are there any moral issues or questions of conscience?

[Dreadful Scathe]

If all the facts were known and everyone knew everything about each competitors preparation, would the source of the chroreography matter?

No! And why should it? Unless the rules specifically say "no professional choreography" or say that the "choreographer must dance in the routine"... the former is maybe ok in the amateur comps we are talking about, but the latter would be harsh if the choreographer is a bit ill on the day.

Who really *deserves* to win out of the two couples?

the best performed routine on the day deserves to win

I realise this would be all but impossible to police but are there any moral issues or questions of conscience?

none whatsoever

[geoff332]

Ceroc is like most performance competitions - including other dance competitions and a fair few Olympic events.

In ballroom dancing, the better couples have a coach or trainer. Their role will vary depending on the couple, but they generally are there to help the couple improve. This could range from technical tips and feedback to full choreography.

The problem with introducing rules around this are that it's almost impossible to police. I could very easily get a routine from one teacher or another, then claim I developed it myself - which would be a black and white case of plagerism. However, it would be virtually unprovable. Similarly, like most dancers, I get taught moves by various people. How is using moves I got taught by other people different from using an entire routine taught by another person.

If I were figuring out a competition routine, I'd bring a lot of these moves into that routine, some I'd put in my own variations; others I'd make up myself. I suspect this is what everyone does and is perfectly OK. I would guess that every competition routine lies somewhere between these two extremes. Deciding where the line lies between 'OK' and 'not OK' is virtually impossible.

Because this is all so complicated, the norm is to judge people on their performance on the day. That performance is the dancer's chance to express themselves - their technical skill and their creativity. That's what's available for the judges and can't be disputed (the judge's interpretation and reaction to the dance can be disputed; but that's unavoidable in a subjective field like dancing).

What I would be more interested in hearing about is a variation on this:

• Couple Z does a relatively simple routine, but does it very well: technically excellent, well connected with both one another and the music. They have a fair amount of style, flair and panache, but don't use a lot of flashy moves.
• Couple Y does a far more complex routine, with lots of 'wow' moves. But their technical execution is competent, but a little sloppy and their connection is more mechanistic: they hit the breaks, because they know the song and have a routine designed to do that. But this routine is a real crowd pleaser.

Which is more likely to win? Which do you think should win?

[DavidB]

What I would be more interested in hearing about is a variation on this:

• Couple Z does a relatively simple routine, but does it very well: technically excellent, well connected with both one another and the music. They have a fair amount of style, flair and panache, but don't use a lot of flashy moves.
• Couple Y does a far more complex routine, with lots of 'wow' moves. But their technical execution is competent, but a little sloppy and their connection is more mechanistic: they hit the breaks, because they know the song and have a routine designed to do that. But this routine is a real crowd pleaser.

Which is more likely to win?

Couple Y

Which do you think should win?

Couple Y


The only time I have ever seen anything like this was years ago in Latin competitions, when Sammy Stopford & Barbara McColl did a basic Rumba in open competitions. There were a few differences to your scenario though:
They had huge amounts of "style, flair and panache"
Their routine got the crowd going, not the 'flashy' routines.
The other couples were also technically excellent.

They often won the rumba, but came second overall.

[Alan Doyle]

What I would be more interested in hearing about is a variation on this:

• Couple Z does a relatively simple routine, but does it very well: technically excellent, well connected with both one another and the music. They have a fair amount of style, flair and panache, but don't use a lot of flashy moves.
• Couple Y does a far more complex routine, with lots of 'wow' moves. But their technical execution is competent, but a little sloppy and their connection is more mechanistic: they hit the breaks, because they know the song and have a routine designed to do that. But this routine is a real crowd pleaser.

Which is more likely to win? Which do you think should win?

It depends on what level the competition is...e.g. if it's novice, you're judged on timing, technique & teamwork not on Content or Showmanship. If your timing, technique & teamwork is not good then rest doesn't matter.

Content & Showmanship is judged at higher levels and you NEED to have good timing, technique & teamwork at the higher levels. But at the lower levels you are not judged on content & showmanship only Timing, Technique & Teamwork

[DavidB]

My view:

It is a dance competition, not a choreography competition. Therefore the best performance on the day should win. The source of the choreography is usually* irrelevant. We don't expect people to learn to dance by themselves, so why should we expect them to learn to choreograph without any help?


* If you copy someone else's routine, you must have their permission to perform it. You also run the risk of being compared to the original performance, and with most good routines being on youtube, this is very likely to happen.

If you do a routine that is based on someone else's routine, or on a film or theatre routine, it gets interesting. I'd expect something from the source, for example 'The Lift' from Dirty Dancing, or the zombies from Michael Jackson's Thriller. However I wouldn't want a straight copy of everything.

If you do your own choreography, then fine. If you have a teacher make a few changes to your choreography, then I would still call it your own.

If you have someone else do it for you, then presumably you have come to some sort of arrangement with them. (ie you have probably paid them to choreograph a routine for you, and performing it in competition or for a cabaret is implicit.) However if you ever perform it on stage or on TV, you should get written permission from the choreographer, and they should get the credit.

Competition Rules
There is often a rule stating that 'Plagiarism rules apply', but these rules are not defined. Plagiarism is passing of someone's work as your own, but as far as I know the organisers only want to stop you copying someone else's routine.

[TheTramp]

Personally, I would like to see a declaration on the entry form to state that the work being danced in the competition is the work of the people performing it, and that dancing other peoples choreography is not allowed.

Another scenario - 2 couples perform routines equally brilliantly in their showmanship, technical ability, performance etc. One couple choreographed the routine themselves totally, the others 'bought' the routine, and had no hand in the choreography at all. The bought routine is better choreography, and hence wins.

Since showcases are being judged, in addition to the above dance criteria, on the musicality, moves, etc. (ie. the choreography), then, IMHO, that should also be the work of the people performing.

I have been asked previously to choreograph routines for people to use for competitions, and I have refused. I have no problem in helping people polish up their own routines, or possibly even suggesting and/or teaching a move for the routine (and of course, here it becomes difficult to draw a line), but full on choreography, no.

We don't expect people to learn to dance by themselves, so why should we expect them to learn to choreograph without any help?

I quite agree. People can learn to choreograph from others. But when they enter a routine for a comp, then I feel it should be substantially their own work. You teach people how to write essays for exams, but you don't actually write the essay for the exam for them (for example).

Seems I'm in the minority here. And difficult to actually police, apart from trusting peoples word. But that's how I think that it should be

[Simon]

I read this thread and thought I'd stepped back in time to about 5 years ago when such interesting and considered exchanges like this were more common on the Forum. Not a blip, I hope.

[Amir]

You don't expect an actor to write his own words. In fact, in most cases you would prefer they didn't.

You do assume a stand-up comic writes their own material.

You know the opera singer didn't pen the song, and that the pop star might be lipsyncing.

But you expect the rock-star to write and sing most of their music.

The painter has to hold the brush, but the architect doesn't touch the mortar.

The newspresenter doesn't get blamed for what they read, but the talk show host does.


So what seperates these modes of expression, and where do we see modern jive?

[Rachel]

Personally, I would like to see a declaration on the entry form to state that the work being danced in the competition is the work of the people performing it, and that dancing other peoples choreography is not allowed. ...

I kind of agree with Tramps' post, but honestly don't know now if I think it should be illegal or not to 'buy in' choreography. I'd certainly rather it didn't become the norm.

I remember being quite shocked, some years ago, to find out that some people had been using professional choreographers. I found it strange, in that I thought the choreography of a routine would be the most fun part and the main reason why anyone would want to do a showcase. Otherwise it's a bit like getting an interior decorator to design your home, or a having personal shopper/dresser. But I guess we're all different ...

Mainly, however, I worry that if it becomes too usual for people to buy in professional help, it could be only rich people who win modern jive competions. And that would be really sad. I mean, on top of the entrance fees, imagine how much pressure there is nowadays for competitors to buy expensive outfits, not to mention the increasing use of private lessons, hall hire, etc etc.

It would be awful if people were put off from competing because they felt they couldn't afford it.

Rachel

[Dreadful Scathe]

this has come up before - i don't think there is any issue with 3rd party choreographers ie. people not actually dancing in the routine, as long as you have full permission to use the choreography.

[Martin]

It rather dismayed me on on a trip to the UK, to see a team routine and a showcase being performed at UK comps that was corried in Aus.
(they were not even Aus comp standard, but standard ball routines)

At that time ball routines in Aus were comparible to UK comp winning routines, so they did well.

I wondered why these people needed to take other people's work (paid for or not) and display it at a comp.

I would have prefered to see the performers, bring some of thier own work into what they do.

Sure get advice, get somone to help you, but bring a bit of you into it.

I too have been asked to corrie a routine for a couple, I said I will work with you and help you with the structure, but you must bring something of yourself into what you want to do. I will not hand you a complete routine for you to dance.

In an ideal world I would like to see something of the dancers in what they dance (showcase).

[Sure in 2003 I was involved in a team routine in the UK, corried in Aus, but the corrie chick was part of the team and it was taught to the UK couples in the few days leading up to the comp. 2 couples from Aus and 2 couples from UK.]

As to showcase though, if the corrie is not your own, then get it anounced who corried it. If there is marking for corrie... well zero for corrie... coz they did not corrie it themselves.

[robd]

Martin, all that talk of Corrie is likely to confuse the life out of people who wonder what Coronation Street has to do with MJ Competitions

[Martin]

Martin, all that talk of Corrie is likely to confuse the life out of people who wonder what Coronation Street has to do with MJ Competitions

Thing is I cannot spell very well.... If I try for that long word, I am sure to get it wrong most times