Results 1 to 20 of 69

Thread: The execution of Gary Glitter

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,795
    Rep Power
    10

    The execution of Gary Glitter

    Did you see this programme last night, another thought provoking piece of entertainment.

    It focused on the death sentence, rather than the crimes commited.
    I must say it has made me have a good think about the death sentence. I used to be a fairly cut and dried kind of bloke, ie, kill the lot of them and be damned with it, however with the Bat's cancer and my new job with Mencap I find my views and morals changing on a lot of things.

    What do you think?

    Reasoned arguments please, can we get past the knee jerk reaction that is prevelant in society.

    DTS XXX XXX

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Oxford
    Posts
    677
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: The execution of Gary Glitter

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Did you see this programme last night, another thought provoking piece of entertainment.

    It focused on the death sentence, rather than the crimes commited.
    I must say it has made me have a good think about the death sentence. I used to be a fairly cut and dried kind of bloke, ie, kill the lot of them and be damned with it, however with the Bat's cancer and my new job with Mencap I find my views and morals changing on a lot of things.

    What do you think?

    Reasoned arguments please, can we get past the knee jerk reaction that is prevelant in society.
    Well, every civilised society has abolished the death penalty. That says a great deal to me. The main objection one could raise to that statement is the US - but that was a deliberate omission.

    A criminal justice system has four basic things it has to do to the society:
    • Protect the citizens (prevention)
    • Make restitution when a crime is committed (where possible)
    • Rehabilitate people who commit crimes
    • Punish people who commit crimes

    Different people might frame these slightly differently, but these differences are usually trivial. What is usually far more significant is the relative weighting one puts on each of these things. For example, I put protecting society and its citizens at the top of the list and largely disregard punishment and push it to the bottom of the list: I only really consider punishment relevant to the extent it contributes to the other three. Other people will consider punishment essential.

    In terms of these dimensions, the death penalty can be evaluated. It protects society against future offending by the perpetrator. However, it's not the only way to protect society. Some suggest it acts as a deterrent to offending - unfortunately, there's no real evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent. It obviously doesn't rehabilitate the perpetrator - but some argue that certain people cannot be rehabilitated. It doesn't make any real restitution for the crime committed. There could be an argument of 'a life for a life' - but this sounds more like revenge than justice to me. I don't see how it makes any real restitution. And it can obviously be conceived as a punishment - whether it's just or appropriate is another matter.

    You also need to consider the justice system itself. While most western justice systems are reasonably fair, in most countries, you get a better deal if you're the right sort of person - affluent and white in most cases. If you're not, then there are a raft of statistics that show that you're treated differently in the justice system (for example, in the US if you murder someone and happen to be black, then you're far more likely to end up on death row than if you're white; US death rows are also heavily populated by people who are poor and have a range of mental problems).

    Finally, I flip the argument around. I consider the punishments meted out by a society to tell you far more about the society than about the crimes committed. Personally, I don't want to live in a society where it's considered acceptable to kill anyone, regardless of circumstances. Acceptance of killing as a solution to a problem is, to me, a failure of the society. I want better answers.

    Oh, and I highly recommend that everyone watch "A Short Film About Killing" by Kieślowski. He does a beautiful job of comparing and contrasting murder with the death penalty. it's brutal - and draining to watch - but well worth the effort.
    Last edited by geoff332; 10th-November-2009 at 12:50 PM. Reason: Adding the film reference.

  3. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,795
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: The execution of Gary Glitter

    geoff baby I did ask for a reasoned respone and your reply was just that. Well done mate.


    DTS XXX XXX

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    290
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: The execution of Gary Glitter

    In general I agree with geoff332. However I can’t really agree with this bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Well, every civilised society has abolished the death penalty. That says a great deal to me. The main objection one could raise to that statement is the US - but that was a deliberate omission.
    How many of the 52 countries listed by Amnesty International as having carried out the death penalty during year 2008 do you regard as ‘uncivilised’. All of them?

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/death-pena...utions-in-2008

    Obviously the list includes a lot of countries that practice sharia law, no surprises there.

    However, there are a few unexpected entries in the list which includes relatively ‘progressive’ nations that you might not have expected to appear. Japan (27 executions), Taiwan (8+ executions), Jamaica (1), India (70+), China (7003+), USA (37), Singapore (5)

    I'm sure there are other nations that still have it on their books but have shied away from using it in recent years.

    China has also faced accusations of organ-harvesting from those executed.

    Although the last person executed was in 1964 it is worth noting that the UK only abolished the death penalty for treason in 1998. Presumably Blair and Brown had realised that signing the EU constitution could be construed as an act of treason.
    Last edited by Bubble; 10th-November-2009 at 02:43 PM. Reason: fix Amnesty International link

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Oxford
    Posts
    677
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: The execution of Gary Glitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    How many of the 52 countries listed by Amnesty International as having carried out the death penalty during year 2008 do you regard as ‘uncivilised’. All of them?
    In short, yes. For the reason I outlined at the end of my original post.

    Yes, that's a fairly harsh judgement. But I'm quite OK with that.

  6. #6
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    3,426
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: The execution of Gary Glitter

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    In short, yes. For the reason I outlined at the end of my original post.

    Yes, that's a fairly harsh judgement. But I'm quite OK with that.
    To be 100% clear: are you saying that you don't regard any country that carries out the death penalty as civilised?

    Although I have a lot of sympathy with that position, it does make your comment "Well, every civilised society has abolished the death penalty" more than a little bit circular.

  7. #7
    Registered User The Little 'un's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Elgin, Moray, Unit
    Posts
    72
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: The execution of Gary Glitter

    Before watching....My opinion was:

    Bring it back, they all deserve it!!!

    After watching it...My opinion has slightly changed in the respect of having never thought about the things like...Eating your last meal...Recording your apology/last words...(No words can really express the way you would feel...)...writing your last song, etc.

    But the other half of me is still screaamming:

    You shouldn't be touching the kiddies in the first place!!!

    Pretty hard hitting programme though, and what a gem of an actor Hilton McRae is...Slightly proud to be Scottish...I suppose so...

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,795
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: The execution of Gary Glitter

    There has been some very thought provoking tv on as of late.

    This death penalty one, the girl who lost her face, heartbreaking was that one and the one about racism with the American teacher, yes yes I know I have a capital A, I don't usually.

    Blah blah blah point is there is a change in the wind in my thinking and these programmes are contributing quite a lot. I am still a miserable fat bast*rd but now a thinking miserable fat bast*rd.

    Is it me or are other pips changing?

    DTS XXX XXX

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Waltham Abbey
    Posts
    5,534
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: The execution of Gary Glitter

    An eye for an eye, IMO. The punishment should fit the crime.

    If you take someone’s life you should have your life taken from you.

    If you rape kiddies, you should at the very least have your genitals removed and be put in prison for life.

    I can't stand all this mamby pamby "Oh but you can't do that, it's an infringement of their human rights" bollox. What about the human rights of the victim?

    That w@anker Ian Huntly has his own private cell (for his own safety) the latest games consoles, Sky telly, the works. All at your expense!! Jeez, what is the world coming to?


    Sorry...rant over.

  10. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    6,709
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: The execution of Gary Glitter

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Well, every civilised society has abolished the death penalty.
    Ouch! So much for the US.

  11. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Thereabouts
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: The execution of Gary Glitter

    I'm absolutely against the state killing people because it is too cruel.

    I'm coming from a specific angle. The amount of cruelty in a painless death sentence on the individual excuted can and should be limited (and that's why death row compunds my distaste of the American system of keeping people there for years).

    But there's a clear moral difficulty I have with society taking it on themsleves for killing someone elses loved one. Let's set aside the problem of doing that by mistake which we'd do quite a lot.

    For every executed person - there's an innocent mother, father, child or partner left behind to suffer for the rest of their lives. To justify the death penalty you MUST be able to justify inflicting the suffering on those people and indeed punishing them for a crime they did not commit.

    The Wanderer

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    6,709
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: The execution of Gary Glitter

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wanderer View Post
    For every executed person - there's an innocent mother, father, child or partner left behind to suffer for the rest of their lives. To justify the death penalty you MUST be able to justify inflicting the suffering on those people and indeed punishing them for a crime they did not commit.
    Very good point.

  13. #13
    Commercial Operator Swinging bee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Deal Kent (Overlooking the sea)
    Posts
    1,241
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: The execution of Gary Glitter

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Did you see this programme last night, another thought provoking piece of entertainment.

    It focused on the death sentence, rather than the crimes commited.
    I must say it has made me have a good think about the death sentence. I used to be a fairly cut and dried kind of bloke, ie, kill the lot of them and be damned with it, however with the Bat's cancer and my new job with Mencap I find my views and morals changing on a lot of things.

    What do you think?

    Reasoned arguments please, can we get past the knee jerk reaction that is prevelant in society.

    DTS XXX XXX



    After 26 years in the Constabulary, all at the sharp end, dealing first hand with victims of some horrendous crimes, my sympathies lean somwhat away from the perpetrators...What I really think is best kept to myself for the time being....
    My only thought is just how many rights the guilty should actually have? there have been times when it has seemed as though they have more than their victims.....Maybe this is a subject which would come under the banner of the 'civilised society'....
    Just how civilised have the actions of the guilty been?...are we punishing them for transgressing these rules or for the crimes they have comitted?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Gary Glitter - does he deserve it
    By Trouble in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 133
    Last Post: 2nd-September-2008, 06:13 PM
  2. Gary Gygax fails his saving throw :(
    By Beowulf in forum Ceroc Scotland Book Club
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 9th-March-2008, 04:20 PM
  3. Replies: 79
    Last Post: 9th-January-2007, 10:58 AM
  4. Leading and execution of moves - is there a difference ?
    By johnthehappyguy in forum Intermediate Corner
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 29th-March-2005, 02:25 PM
  5. Power
    By Bigger Andy in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 193
    Last Post: 23rd-December-2004, 12:47 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •