View Poll Results: Marriage is...

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  • Delightfully Divine

    5 38.46%
  • Merely Mortal

    6 46.15%
  • Irrelevant

    2 15.38%
  • Irreverent

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Thread: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

  1. #1
    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Divine union made in heaven by God?

    or mortal contract made on earth by a two far more human beings?

    'Til death us do part? Or for a year and a day?

    Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

    Clearly, these are two very different views of marraige.

    What pros and cons? Which is more effective?

    What other 'models' (of relationship) are there ... from other societies?


    I got thinking about this after hearing how a friend of mine, who has been separated for just over a year, is having trouble seeing his kid. It seems (from his point of view) that his (estranged) wife is being awkward and/or obstructive.

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    Re: Marraige: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    I got thinking about this after hearing how a friend of mine, who has been separated for just over a year, is having trouble seeing his kid. It seems (from his point of view) that his (estranged) wife is being awkward and/or obstructive.
    Marriages fail because people fail. Your example is a good case where a relationship has obviously broken down completely. However I believe that no obstacle to a relationship is insurmountable if the partners are 100% committed to loving each other and working together to protect their partnership above all else. I think marriage itself is entirely the right way to go about a relationship - if you're in it on a permanent basis, that's what marriage is for, and if not then you shouldn't be in it at all*.

    Having said that because people are imperfect you get imperfect situations, e.g. forced marriages among certain cultures, abusive partners, cheating and so on. I'm not saying that staying in a marriage that your partner has made untenable is necessarily the best idea, but separation should be the very last resort when all else has been really thoroughly tried.

    As for me, I'm getting married in April and I can't wait

    *obviously insert disclaimer here about dating etc before you've decided whether the person is right for you.

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    Re: Marraige: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who, clearly, hasn't been married yet View Post
    Marriages fail because people fail. Your example is a good case where a relationship has obviously broken down completely. However I believe that no obstacle to a relationship is insurmountable if the partners are 100% committed to loving each other and working together to protect their partnership above all else. I think marriage itself is entirely the right way to go about a relationship - if you're in it on a permanent basis, that's what marriage is for, and if not then you shouldn't be in it at all*.

    Having said that because people are imperfect you get imperfect situations, e.g. forced marriages among certain cultures, abusive partners, cheating and so on. I'm not saying that staying in a marriage that your partner has made untenable is necessarily the best idea, but separation should be the very last resort when all else has been really thoroughly tried.

    As for me, I'm getting married in April and I can't wait

    *obviously insert disclaimer here about dating etc before you've decided whether the person is right for you.
    Once upon a time marriage worked. In a different time, in a diferent world, with different rules.

    Society has changed and, with it, the pressures are different. Yes, there are people who are married for life, and are so happily but, sadly, they are the exception, no longer the rule... Generally, both partners are working now. Generally, the financial pressure is greater: holidays, electrical goods, cars, etc all being considered "necessities"... The final, and for me the worst, aspect is that there is more pressure from employers, society, etc to work longer hours.

    So, from a situation where one earns money (irrespective of gender) and one runs the home (irrespective of gender), we have two people earning money and no-one really running the home: more just trying to keep on top of it but all the while failing... Add to that, the pressures of children, nourishing your partnership and giving your partner time and love, too and it becomes a challenge...

    Add to that, our generation has been brought up with different rules to those before us. And the next generation, more so... nothing, NOTHING, is permament...

    People fail.. It's what we do. It's how we deal with that that makes us who we are. All that said, I don't know what the alternatives are...

    CRM, obviously, I wish U both every happiness in ur marriage. It's not as easy as it looks...

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    Re: Marraige: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    I got thinking about this after hearing how a friend of mine, who has been separated for just over a year, is having trouble seeing his kid. It seems (from his point of view) that his (estranged) wife is being awkward and/or obstructive.
    Clearly the concept of marriage pre-dates modern religion and ever changing religious practices. In fact, in the UK at least, marriages were originally associated with the church simply for the record keeping before becoming closely entwined - but then the entire community, if not country, your ancestors grew up in was closely entwined with religion, so thats not particularly relevant.

    Your friends issues with access to his own children have nothing to do with religion either, modern law is a minefield when it comes to seperated parents and their children - it is always the children that get hurt in the ensuing battle when one selfish parent decides that there SHOULD be a battle.

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    Re: Marraige: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Once upon a time marriage worked. In a different time, in a diferent world, with different rules.
    it does work for some people you know

    Society has changed and, with it, the pressures are different. Yes, there are people who are married for life, and are so happily but, sadly, they are the exception, no longer the rule...
    Nonsense. Divorce rates are at their lowest since 1981.

    Generally, both partners are working now. Generally, the financial pressure is greater: holidays, electrical goods, cars, etc all being considered "necessities"... The final, and for me the worst, aspect is that there is more pressure from employers, society, etc to work longer hours.
    No there isn't. In some areas possibly; but you are speaking generally - and generally, we now have... maternity and paternity leave, time off anytime for couples with children under 5, flexi-time, working from home, sick pay and holiday pay, unfair dismissal rules, extra power for temporary workers, minimum wages etc...it all serves to make life far easier for the majority of us. As for "necessities", that is up to the individual and how they want to live their life.

    So, from a situation where one earns money (irrespective of gender) and one runs the home (irrespective of gender), we have two people earning money and no-one really running the home: more just trying to keep on top of it but all the while failing... Add to that, the pressures of children, nourishing your partnership and giving your partner time and love, too and it becomes a challenge...
    Sometimes, but not always a difficult challenge. Of all the things to fail at, "running the home" shouldn't be one of them if you have your priorities right. If you get that wrong, then what do you have?

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Marraige: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    :
    No there isn't. In some areas possibly; but you are speaking generally - and generally, we now have... maternity and paternity leave, time off anytime for couples with children under 5, flexi-time, working from home, sick pay and holiday pay, unfair dismissal rules, extra power for temporary workers, minimum wages etc...it all serves to make life far easier for the majority of us. As for "necessities", that is up to the individual and how they want to live their life.
    HAve to agree. When I look back to all the challenges that my parents generation had to contend with, we have it comparatively straightforward. I find it vaugely sad to see people claiming that the pressures of modern society are to blame .... would help if people took more accountability for their own fate. At times one party does come off second-best due to the extreme self-interest of the other party ... but thats down to people not society (personal view)

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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Please don't get me wrong, Gus. I wasn't blaming society for the downfall of my own marriage. I absolutely take 50% of the responsibility... I'm not sure where the other 50% lies, as my ex is absolutely faultless!!

    Anyway... I was alluding to (badly) that I was talking in general, about the general populace. As diificult as it is to believe sometimes, this forum doesn't really deal with "general" or "normal". As a group, we are probably more intelligent and wealthier than Joe Average.

    There are people who strugle with modern society and make the wrong choices. Part of that is education. 50 years ago, marriage was forever and you knew that when you went into it. Nowadays, and over the last 20 years or so, husbands/wives are as easy to replace as the TVs, computers, houses and dishwashers that U lose in divorce, also... It's a different mentality. Is it people being led by society or is it society leading people??

    The current legislation is just that. Current. It hasn't been around for that long, and in practice it isn't available to everyone. We're a little while away from fluffy Perfectworld....

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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    As a group, we are probably more intelligent and wealthier than Joe Average.
    Don't kid yourself.

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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    I thought the title of this thread said Mortal Combat when I first saw it in the listing. I know divorce can be messy but it's not quite the same as a fatality

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    Cool Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    God has little to do with a successful marriage in my opinion. Regardless of if you see marriage as a divine bond, or a secular contract it still requires work and understanding to make it successful. When people find out that Essie and me have been blissfully married for 15 years they often tell us that we are really lucky. I guess to a degree that comment is true. But if you're planning on having a marriage that is successful; probably best not to rely on luck. I could list the things that I feel make a successful marriage, but as every person is different, and every couple therefore must be at least doubly different I'm not sure it would be much use.

    Suffice it to say - luck is a tiny factor in what makes us so happy with each other and God certainly doesn't factor at all

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Nowadays, and over the last 20 years or so, husbands/wives are as easy to replace as the TVs, computers, houses and dishwashers that U lose in divorce,
    Erm, I think some people may disagree with that!
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Erm, I think some people may disagree with that!
    I'm hoping they would Lory!!!!!!!!

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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    But if you're planning on having a marriage that is successful; probably best not to rely on luck.


    Can't say I agree with the (non)involvement of God, but then I guess that depends on your beliefs - sharing my faith with my fiancée makes our partnership stronger than it would be otherwise IMHO, and I know it'll help us to work through tough times when they come.

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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    I must say God and religion have absolutley no place in my life. I truly believe it is all lies to keep the common man in line. I do not want to offend anyone that is how I feel about religion. Religion has caused more wars than any thing else.

    I know some of you Forumites are believers, and I respect that therefore I will not be drawn into any discussion about it.

    DTS XXX XXX

  15. #15
    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I thought the title of this thread said Mortal Combat when I first saw it in the listing. I know divorce can be messy but it's not quite the same as a fatality


    Priceless!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    I got thinking about this after hearing how a friend of mine, who has been separated for just over a year, is having trouble seeing his kid. It seems (from his point of view) that his (estranged) wife is being awkward and/or obstructive.
    Don't get me wrong. I don't believe that the wife is being overly obstructive because she is being bitter or vindictive.

    She has moved back up to parents in order to get to a better school than the kid would otherwise have access to. Unfortunately it's a short trip up the motorway, and my friend has no car. He is also heavily involved in theatre, and often brings her daughter down to theatre where she seems to have a whale of a time, and plenty of attention from some lovely people. However, when she gets back home, she goes reclusive for a few days.

    Clearly this will cause a little consternation and worry, and perhaps trigger an insecurity [My daughter's had so much excitement at the weekend, that I can't supply, and then goes reclusive because I can't match that excitement!] ... maybe.

    And so, despite the fact that she works at (and drives into) the town where lives, I can fully understand why she might not want to put all too much effort into organising dropping daughter off.

    It's complicated .... involving trust and insecurities issues (probably). And yes, daughter really gains little from this state of affairs.

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    Can't say I agree with the (non)involvement of God, but then I guess that depends on your beliefs - sharing my faith with my fiancée makes our partnership stronger than it would be otherwise IMHO, and I know it'll help us to work through tough times when they come.
    Agreed. I don't think it's the non-involvement of God in our relationship that has kept us together and kept us strong. It's a unity in belief - even if our mutual belief is that there possibly isn't an almighty creator of all things that we are answerable to.

    I think the problems can really start where there is an imbalance of beliefs (not just with Christianity, but any belief structure). I wish you and your fiancée nothing but the best for your years to come.

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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    What pros and cons? Which is more effective?
    Simple: the religious view of marriage requires belief in a non-existent entity. That is the atheist view and, I suspect, ones views about God would dominate the distinction far more than the individuals views on marriage. As such, that particular split is not particularly helpful in understanding marriage and how it operates. Instead, it can only produce a theological debate. Those sort of debates tend two produce losers on both sides.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    What other 'models' (of relationship) are there ... from other societies?
    Far more relevant would be to look at the defining characteristics of traditional (western) marriages. I can think of a few that are quite interesting, but this is by no means a complete list.

    Firstly, the notion of romantic love and marriage is relatively new. The modern conception of romance was only properly conceived a few hundred years ago - in the 18th century. Prior to that "love" was more akin to "service" or "commitment". Today, romantic love is treated as the foundation of marriage. In the past, marriage was much more of a practical relationship. Shifting the basis of marriage from a practical relationship to a romantic relationship means that we have preserved an institution, but shifted its foundation. Funnily enough, shifting the foundation doesn't work so well.

    Secondly, when the notion of marriage as a permanent bond was developed, human life was hugely different: people tended to live close to where they were born, tended to live far shorter lives, men tended to follow their fathers' line of work, and people tended to marry much younger. These are all quite radical changes that have a direct effect on the permanence of marriage. Today, we spend far longer growing up and developing an identify as an individual. When we marry, we have to develop an identity as a married person that fits with our identity as an individual; and this identify has to last quite a bit longer.

    Thirdly, marriage used to be heavily asymmetrical: the roles and responsibilities of each partner were different and distinct. The power relationship was heavily weighted towards the man - mostly due to the economic roles, supported by the legal system. This isn't true today and, as a result, each partner needs to figure out their role in the marriage. It's much easier for a woman to leave a man today, making the power relationship more symmetrical.

    Fourthly, and enough for now, marriage used to be a public compact between the married couple and the community (in the religious view, marriage is a three way relationship, with God as the third partner; this is one way of interpreting the basic concept of a public compact). Today, with vastly increased social and geographic mobility, we have less bond to the community as individuals. This means that married has become far more of a private compact between two people. In crude terms, the work to sustain the relationship that used to be done by three parties is now done by two and is consequently harder.

    I could add in a whole lot of other things (eg dating is a relatively new invention; it didn't really exist prior to the 20th century). But the basic point is this: marriage is a social institution that developed in and for a society that doesn't exist any more, creating a large gap. That gap is not one of a generation or two, but of centuries of social and economic change. We cannot roll the clock on society back hundreds of years, so we have to rethink the basic notions of marriage.

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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    you know what.... i always thought marriage was the only way a man could get his end away. Back in the early days.


    Now of course sexual freedom has removed that requirement but people still get married. Why?

    Well, here are the reasons im going to get married again....


    1. I have absolutely and totally found what they call "the one".
    2. I have learnt how to protect "the one" from my previous failures in the 20 year marriage that i had that has ended up almost breaking me financially.
    3. I am not as selfish as i used to be therefore more ready for marriage.
    4. I love being called the wife.
    5. I hate being alone.
    6. I have grown up.
    7. Oh and finally, i absolutely adore family and without someone to share it with whats the point.

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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Simple: the religious view of marriage requires belief in a non-existent entity. That is the atheist view and, I suspect, ones views about God would dominate the distinction far more than the individuals views on marriage. As such, that particular split is not particularly helpful in understanding marriage and how it operates. Instead, it can only produce a theological debate. Those sort of debates tend two produce losers on both sides.
    I wouldn't agree entirely, I imagine people get married in church all the time without any particular belief in gods, I know I did. Its a tradition that goes back a long time, and so much of our society; education, community , government etc...can trace its history to the organisation of religion. You can be or feel religious or even just appreciate religion without any god belief. As for atheism, it is more acceptable now to admit it as a label that may apply to you, but there were always atheists and they went to church just like everyone else.

    Firstly, the notion of romantic love and marriage is relatively new. The modern conception of romance was only properly conceived a few hundred years ago - in the 18th century. Prior to that "love" was more akin to "service" or "commitment".
    erm...i point to just one earlier example of "star crossed lovers". Is that not romance enough for you?

    When we marry, we have to develop an identity as a married person that fits with our identity as an individual; and this identify has to last quite a bit longer.
    You sound like some sort of psychologist we don't "have to" do anything, we all have different degrees of self-awareness and self-understanding just as we have various degrees of understanding of our relationships with other people. Our personal and interpersonal growth happens regardless of our fundamental understanding of it. Its not rocket science and is there a difference, fundamentally, between a married couple and an unmarried couple other than the certificate nowadays?

    Thirdly, marriage used to be heavily asymmetrical: the roles and responsibilities of each partner were different and distinct. The power relationship was heavily weighted towards the man - mostly due to the economic roles, supported by the legal system. This isn't true today and, as a result, each partner needs to figure out their role in the marriage. It's much easier for a woman to leave a man today, making the power relationship more symmetrical.
    True, it is much more even with no partner having the "upper hand", at least from a legal point of view . Again though, you make this sound complicated "figure out their role" suggests 2 independant people coming to a decision and hoping it fits - as a couple that intend to spend a life together, regardless of marriage certificate, surely you want to grow together naturally - hopefully before you commit to something longer term.


    Fourthly, and enough for now, marriage used to be a public compact between the married couple and the community (in the religious view, marriage is a three way relationship, with God as the third partner; this is one way of interpreting the basic concept of a public compact). Today, with vastly increased social and geographic mobility, we have less bond to the community as individuals. This means that married has become far more of a private compact between two people. In crude terms, the work to sustain the relationship that used to be done by three parties is now done by two and is consequently harder.
    You have a good point, but I would say that family is the third party, and it also depends where you live. People may not be so involved with the community in a big city, but if you live in some of the more remote parts of the country, community can be as strong as it ever was. And technology can help too - my sister lives in Canada but I speak to and see her regularly - either through her flying over, or video calls.

    I could add in a whole lot of other things (eg dating is a relatively new invention; it didn't really exist prior to the 20th century). But the basic point is this: marriage is a social institution that developed in and for a society that doesn't exist any more, creating a large gap. That gap is not one of a generation or two, but of centuries of social and economic change. We cannot roll the clock on society back hundreds of years, so we have to rethink the basic notions of marriage.
    I would disagree. You make it sound like our notion of marriage is stuck in time, invented for a dead society. Of course it isn't. People get married according to current, and ever changing, social mores. We can see that with gay marriage, which uses the label "civil partnership" purely because the use of "marriage" would annoy some people - but it is still marriage, and marriage is still simply the joining of two people and a public label of commitment.

    Also, "dating is a new invention" really - what was "courting" if not dating ?

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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    marriage is still simply the joining of two people and a public label of commitment.
    I was going to write a long reply. If you believe this, fine. But I believe marriage is far more complex than this - as I highlighted in my analysis. Marriage is - and always has been embedded in the society in which we live. But reducing it to simply a public commitment means that there's no point in providing any detailed analysis or engaging in any argument.

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