View Poll Results: Marriage is...

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  • Delightfully Divine

    5 38.46%
  • Merely Mortal

    6 46.15%
  • Irrelevant

    2 15.38%
  • Irreverent

    0 0%
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Thread: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

  1. #41
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    I must say God and religion have absolutley no place in my life. I truly believe it is all lies to keep the common man in line. I do not want to offend anyone that is how I feel about religion. Religion has caused more wars than any thing else.

    I know some of you Forumites are believers, and I respect that therefore I will not be drawn into any discussion about it.

    DTS XXX XXX
    Really? How many of the following were caused by religion do you think?
    World War 2 (60 million dead)
    World War 1 (12 million dead)
    Balkan Wars 1 & 2 (1912-1923)
    Boer War 1899-1902
    Russo-Turkish Wars (1768/1828/1877)
    Franco-Prussian War (1870-71)
    Austro-Prussian war (1866)
    American Civil War
    Hapsburg Revolutions 1848-49
    Belgian Revolution 1830
    Napoleonic Wars
    Wars of the French Revolution
    War of (American) Independence
    Seven Years War………. .

    You get the drift.

    What institution has been responsible for the development of:
    Education
    Hospitals
    Poor relief and charitable works…….. .

    You get the drift.


    I have every sympathy with your viewpoint that religion has been institutionalised for the interests of the establishment. Counterfeiting only shows the value of the real thing.

  2. #42
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    Divine union made in heaven by God?

    or mortal contract made on earth by a two far more human beings?

    'Til death us do part? Or for a year and a day?

    Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

    Clearly, these are two very different views of marraige.

    What pros and cons? Which is more effective?

    What other 'models' (of relationship) are there ... from other societies?


    I got thinking about this after hearing how a friend of mine, who has been separated for just over a year, is having trouble seeing his kid. It seems (from his point of view) that his (estranged) wife is being awkward and/or obstructive.
    A very interesting question: I know of no society which has lasted for more than a few generations without it. What does seem to vary is the view on divorce although most have not been very much in favour of it either. Unfortunately as imperfect mortals we do not seem to be good at getting it right. I suspect modern divorce rates merely reflect the ability to live outside of marriage. A friend once commented that both grandmothers had been lifelong in their marriages; both would have preferred divorce but could not afford to do it.

  3. #43
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagen View Post
    Really? How many of the following were caused by religion do you think?
    World War 2 (60 million dead)

    etc...

    You get the drift.

    What institution has been responsible for the development of:
    Education
    Hospitals
    Poor relief and charitable works…….. .

    You get the drift.
    You are quite right to attack the myth that religions are the cause of wars, but you are wrong to suggest that religions are responsible for education, hospitals and charity. That is no less disingenuous than DTS's original claim. Religion was almost certainly heavily involved in many of those things in many cultures, but are not entirely responsible.

  4. #44
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    You are quite right to attack the myth that religions are the cause of wars, but you are wrong to suggest that religions are responsible for education, hospitals and charity. That is no less disingenuous than DTS's original claim. Religion was almost certainly heavily involved in many of those things in many cultures, but are not entirely responsible.
    99%, 98%, 97%....... . I am not sure I want to make them ENTIRELY responsible for I am only widening the point on what contribution they have made but on who else would you wish to bestow honours?

  5. #45
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagen View Post
    99%, 98%, 97%....... . I am not sure I want to make them ENTIRELY responsible for I am only widening the point on what contribution they have made but on who else would you wish to bestow honours?
    well, everyone involved - who may or may not have been religious and may or may not have given religion any thought when doing it. Ultimately good things AND bad things are down to people, not religion.

  6. #46
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagen View Post
    99%, 98%, 97%
    Anything can be proved with statistics. 48% of the population believe that!

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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    You are quite right to attack the myth that religions are the cause of wars, but you are wrong to suggest that religions are responsible for education, hospitals and charity. That is no less disingenuous than DTS's original claim. Religion was almost certainly heavily involved in many of those things in many cultures, but are not entirely responsible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hagen View Post
    99%, 98%, 97%....... . I am not sure I want to make them ENTIRELY responsible for I am only widening the point on what contribution they have made but on who else would you wish to bestow honours?
    The simple story is all of those things - good and evil, nice and nasty - are products of human behaviour. Religion has been involved to focus activity - again, for both good and evil - but it is mostly little more than a rationale or an excuse, rather than a genuine motivation.

    Given that in western societies at the time things like education, hospitals and charity were emerging being religious was virtually a precondition of participation in society, you have a very clear coincidence of religion and these changes. But coincidence isn't causality. In fact, it's impossible to argue causality if you want the argument to remain logically valid. Far better causal explanations of these things emerging come from the technological and socio-economic changes creating things like liberty, leisure time, and sufficient excess wealth to spend on these things. Religion had been around a few thousand years, but it was only when we had time on our hands and money to spend that society started changing in this direction.

  8. #48
    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    [QUOTE=Hagen;564398]Really? How many of the following were caused by religion do you think?
    World War 2 (60 million dead)
    World War 1 (12 million dead)
    Balkan Wars 1 & 2 (1912-1923)
    Boer War 1899-1902
    Russo-Turkish Wars (1768/1828/1877)
    Franco-Prussian War (1870-71)
    Austro-Prussian war (1866)
    American Civil War
    Hapsburg Revolutions 1848-49
    Belgian Revolution 1830
    Napoleonic Wars
    Wars of the French Revolution
    War of (American) Independence
    Seven Years War………. .

    You get the drift.

    What institution has been responsible for the development of:
    Education
    Hospitals
    Poor relief and charitable works…….. .

    You get the drift.

    .... hmmmmm .... is it really that simple???

    'It was as assassination that 'caused' the war, and, so , nothing to do with religion!!!

    Certainly, religion underpins most, if not all of European societies (for very good reasons, in my view), and so, it's impossible to disentangle religion from event in Europe (good and bad), probably since the Greeks (or earlier??)

    And so, the goodness or evilness of religion is, quite frankly, irrelevant (... as some have said). However, it can, and has been successfully used as an emotional draw in order to mass control/inflitrate/brainwash behaviour (Northern Ireland, Palestine, Al Queda).

    This, to my mind, is the danger. Religion, clearly impacts on personal philosophy. However, that personal philosophy must be primary. There is no reason why religion cannot enhance and/or enrich individuality, where religion is implemented (or enforced) to erode that individuality, such as personal clothing, it causes long term harm (but possibly short term benefit).However, the danger in enriching individuality, is that it makes a populate less homogenous, more difficult to control

    Sadly, there seems to be many instances in the past of religion being used to enforce a controlling power, in such a way as to deride (in some way) the religion of another nation/society .... conquering forces have often defiled/destroyed the spiritual homes of others, as these were often seen as a basis for that populations 'power'. [which in some cases it was!]

    It is evident in our vocabulary .... 'infidel', 'non-believer' (as in 'Shun the non-believer!'), pagan, heathen (both of which are losing their venom ..... however, contrary to their historically accepted meaning of 'uncouth, uncivilised, hedonistic, devil-worshipping (at least mildly implied)'.

    I'm not sure what point this is making ... but maybe, it might provide food for thought, issues for dissection.

  9. #49
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Well now.

    Which laws, enforced by which institution, were used to burn at the stake which people who attempted to introduce a Bible in English to the churches in this country? Which institution fought tooth and nail for centuries to delay the progress of scientific understanding of the universe - exiling, for example, someone who discovered that the earth goes round the sun, and not vice versa. Doesn't that sound rather anti-education and uncharitable?

    In my view the urge toward better education, charitable works and so forth in Europe proceeded from the hard work and great thinking of individuals. Until relatively recently the most obvious source of funds was the churches - and the occasional wealthy person. It doesn't seem to me that it necessarily follows that religion should receive all the credit for such things.

  10. #50
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    I'm not sure what point this is making ... but maybe, it might provide food for thought, issues for dissection.

    I think the topic that was about marriage has now been hijacked, which was not my intent. I was merely pointing out that it was inappropriate to say Religion has caused more wars than any thing else.It has caused many other things and wars are rarely based on religion, which is normally a covert excuse. It is also about as helpful as saying that politics has caused more wars than anything else. Let us all avoid politics and become hermits. Not really a viable option. Everybody is religious in that they have a way of life based on their world view; not everyone has a Religion.
    1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
    2 a particular system of faith and worship.
    3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.

    well, everyone involved - who may or may not have been religious and may or may not have given religion any thought when doing it. Ultimately good things AND bad things are down to people, not religion.

    OK so wars are down to people not religion so that disposes of the whole argument of dave the scaffolder. Of course one might ask how people are motivated and on what they base philosophic views and how religion drives those …. but then we shall just go in a circular argument.

    I'm not sure what point this is making ... but maybe, it might provide food for thought, issues for dissection.

    Well one could start another thread to cover the topic but this is a dance forum and so I vote in favour of 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion and shall go out for a dance.

  11. #51
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagen View Post
    but this is a dance forum and so I vote in favour of 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion and shall go out for a dance.
    Lol, have you actually looked at most of the posts here?

  12. #52
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagen View Post
    I was merely pointing out that it was inappropriate to say Religion has caused more wars than any thing else.
    You didn't merely say that, you also laid the credit for Education,
    Hospitals, Poor relief and charitable works……at the door of religion. Just as inappropriate.

    Everybody is religious in that they have a way of life based on their world view; not everyone has a Religion.
    You are fairly free and easy with the term "Religious" - what? ANY worldview?

    Of course one might ask how people are motivated and on what they base philosophic views and how religion drives those …. but then we shall just go in a circular argument.
    There is no need to get into a circular argument - religion has a measurable affect on people and society just as education, philosophy, nature, culture, nachos, location and everything else has.

    Well one could start another thread to cover the topic but this is a dance forum
    ...and this is the "chit chat" part of it

  13. #53
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Don't get me wrong i would love to get married one day but, at the moment i am extremely happy with my partner and we are committed to/with one another but i don't need a piece of paper to tell me that.

  14. #54
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Lol, have you actually looked at most of the posts here?
    Perhaps but it is an exit strategy from this topic.

    You didn't merelysay that, you also laid the credit for Education,
    Hospitals, Poor relief and charitable works……at the door of religion. Just as inappropriate.

    The list is juxtaposed to my original list in order to make a point. It is not supposed to be a subtly nuanced argument on the relative input between religious and non-religious factors contribution to the historical development of the listed items. The clue is in my use of the phrase ‘you get my drift…’ DTS has had directly and/or indirectly a negative experience with ‘Religion’. So have I but I have had positive experiences too and come to different conclusions. Assessing these here will not enhance that debate; if you want to discuss the topic of the relative input of different views on the development of society you could start a new one specifically for it.

    You are fairly free and easy with the term "Religious" - what? ANY worldview?
    I am making the point that we all have a faith in the worldview by which we live; hence we are all small ‘r’ religious. Most people take a view that the sun will rise above the horizon at dawn the next day based on a scientific analysis of the environment. There have been those who consider it necessary to propitiate the gods to ensure the daily or annual cycle of events will occur. In each case there is a ‘faith’ being exercised about the future that will unfold. To follow a ‘Religion’ means one of those points listed in my previous post.

  15. #55
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    So this marriage thing (Ill refrain from coming back to ridiculousness about small 'r' religion and "faith in the worldview by which we live"... the most generic statement ever... - oh damn)


    So....Wedding Rings...

    Seeing a certain wulfs facebook comment about going "off to jewellers to buy the wedding rings " made me curious enough to ask...

    Is it quite common to get 2 rings? I don't wear jewellery so it never occurred to me that i would need a ring. I was asked by the Meenester if it would be one ring or two, so I assume it is still common to have just the one?

  16. #56
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    Re: Marriage: Divine union or mortal contract

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Seeing a certain wulfs facebook comment about going "off to jewellers to buy the wedding rings " made me curious enough to ask...

    Is it quite common to get 2 rings?

    Word found me on t'interweb that I'd been being stalked on here.. Had to come back to see

    as far as I know it's quite common for grooms to get a wedding ring.. my dad had one, Louise's dad had one. My Best man (Gadget) has one. Never really considered not having one to be honest.

    Louise of course is getting two rings. the wedding band that she'll wear with her engagement ring. The engagement ring was "quite an investment" and obviously Louise still wants to wear (and show it off)

    of course.. MY ring is the ONE ring that rules them all (at least whenever Louise isn't telling me what to do that is ! )

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