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Thread: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

  1. #21
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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Just playing Devil's Advocate here, check out both links in post no 14 and 20.

    DTS XXX XXX

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Having watched the programme I do not think he did himself any favours as he appeared to be bumbling evasive and contradictory. I think his veneer of respectability was exposed. He came across to me as inadequate when faced with the questioning.

    But by the very nature of the fact that he was there I feel that it was not the normal balanced Question Time.

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    [FONT=Verdana]Basically the BNP are a far right party that started out life as the National Front and metamorphosised into the BNP to try and make themselves and their policies more acceptable. T[/URL]
    Just as Sinn Fein started out as the IRA...
    I'm not a BNP supporter, but They did recently win a seat in Westminster, and have earned the democratic right to have their voice heard. I am no more offended by Nick Griffin being allowed to voice his opinion on question time, than I was by Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness ( two known terrorists) being allowed to do the same thing, or taking their seats at Westminster.

    Fortunately we still live in a democracy, and as such Nick Griffin represents the views of more than just a few people, and has the democratic right to air those views.

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    May I humbly suggest we owe it to ourselves, and each other, to get involved, and stay involved, in politics??
    Apathy,ignorance,lazyness call it what you like.I have never voted and never will.
    When there is a man such as Mendalson(?) coming back into government having been thrown out twice and apparently having such a say in what goes on just beggars belief.
    The expenses scandal was just another example of how greedy,coniving,selfish and dishonest people in high places are.
    The immigration/asylum seekers policies as far as I am concerned is another area that I cant accept.

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    I loved this quote from the Today program

    It won’t make any difference, the sort of people who voted form him, wont watch Question Time, they are the sort of people who watch X Factor

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Great link posted on Facebook by Mel and Tonic:

    10 Things to Know About the BNP
    Those 10 things: yes, interesting but kind of biased. Theres enough, mostly racist, nonsense surrounding the BNP that we do not need to try and put an evil spin on everything. To look at some of those 10 points.

    1. So Nick Griffin read 'Mein Kampf' when he was 13. Good on him. More 13 year olds should.

    3. Then theres "We... believe that the Olympics should be held in Greece on a permanent basis.". Why is this such a huge negative ? The cost of the 2012 games is put at, at the moment, £5.3 billion. Is that the best use of £5.3 billion coming out of a recession? Olympic stats here

    4. Enoch Powell ? Well ...from wikipedia "On 27 July 1959 Powell gave his speech on Hola Camp of Kenya, where eleven Mau Mau were killed after refusing work in the camp. Powell noted that some MPs had described the eleven as "sub-human" but Powell responded by saying: "In general, I would say that it is a fearful doctrine, which must recoil upon the heads of those who pronounce it, to stand in judgment on a fellow human being and to say, 'Because he was such-and-such, therefore the consequences which would otherwise flow from his death shall not flow'." Powell also disagreed with the notion that because it was in Africa then different methods were acceptable:".

    I never considered Enoch Powell a white supremicist (from the little I remember of political history), just very, very Pro-British.

    His famous Rivers of Blood speech was apparantly about the introduction of the Race Relations Act in 1968. "The Act would prohibit discrimination on the grounds of race in certain areas of British life, particularly housing, where many local authorities had been refusing to provide houses for immigrant families until they had lived in the country for a certain number of years." Which actually is 2 different things - preventing newcomers into a country from getting housing right away is not racism on its own. In fact, by making sure housing IS provided after some years is that racism or just red tape? Certainly we need politicians to discuss things like that and clearly many people believed Enoch had a point. So i think to teach children about politics, and get them interested in it from an early age is not necessarily a bad thing at all. I'm pretty sure the BNP do not "get" Enoch Powell at all. Powell once said "I have and always will set my face like flint against making any difference between one citizen of this country and another on grounds of his origins."

    The rest of the 10 points mostly about links to other racists or dodgy people and the criminal past of the party members - is that particularly valid ? are all other UK parties filled with angelic MP's who have never done anything illegal and have never had any associations with dodgy people? Of course

    Had to laugh at the front page of nonsense tabloid The Daily Record today which suggested that Mr.Grffin was cowardly for sneaking in the back of BBC centre instead of fighting his way through a mob at the front. I can just say their headline next time when he takes their advice: "Brave Fascist fights through mob to exercise his right of free speech". ok, probably not

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    I loved this quote from the Today program
    I think that's rather facetious. Fascism isn't something you wander into by accident, in the main

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Quote Originally Posted by knightengale View Post
    I also find it funny how they can say immigration is wrong, but then are happy with the idea of moving to a nice holiday home in Spain.. Isn't that the same thing. some people are fine with us wanting to move to another country and use there systems but not when it comes to here isn't that stupid
    As somebody who has done just that and is basically against the immigration policies of this government perhaps I should express my thoughts on this.

    Our home abroad was owned by us,we were in regular employment,we had to have an accountant in order to pay our taxes and we had to pay for our medical treatment and our prescriptions.

    Now if you compare that with the way that this Dr Hook or whatever his name is, has fleeced this country and us tax payers out of thousands of pounds of benefits,housing and health treatment. And you know that is what is happening in thousands of cases.

    Before we went to live abroad I was working for a Ford franchise and there were individuals coming in and purchasing vehicles with cheques provided by Social Security because it was cheaper to buy them a car than keep paying for taxis to take them everywhere.When I needed the financial help of the DSS because I had only had one days work in a week they informed me that I had earnt enought to keep my family so I was not entitled to any help.

    Having worked and paid my dues and demands for 46 years am I bitter?

    You bet your bloody life I am.

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    I watched Question Time for the first time last night, and i only watched it because of the continous facebook status''s that kept popping up. However i despise ignorance and the fact one of my friends asked on my status? Who's Nick Griffin?? Whats the BNP? REALLY frustrated me...

    anyway back to the topic..


    three points id like to make.


    1. I'm pretty sure that was the most wathed Question Time ever, pulling in the same numbers of people who vote on X factor....


    2. Nick Griffin looked an embarrasment and so he should, some of his policies are completely out of the question sometimes i do feel out of place in my own country but i am not a racist and Griffin continously denies he is a racist when he quite clearly is.


    3. He made some very stupid remarks, such as saying the leader of the KKK was a, "non,violent man."


    4. Because of the debate...we didn't get an answer anyway! The Muslim woman got on my nerves,...i didn't really see the point of having the american woman on there although i did like her oh and Jack Straw is a complete ****.

  10. #30
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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Dance Demon View Post
    Just as Sinn Fein started out as the IRA...
    I'm not a BNP supporter, but They did recently win a seat in Westminster, and have earned the democratic right to have their voice heard. I am no more offended by Nick Griffin being allowed to voice his opinion on question time, than I was by Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness ( two known terrorists) being allowed to do the same thing, or taking their seats at Westminster.

    Fortunately we still live in a democracy, and as such Nick Griffin represents the views of more than just a few people, and has the democratic right to air those views.
    The elections they won seats in recently were for the European Parliament, not Westminster. Unless perhaps you mean Westminster City Council, though I couldn't find evidence of any recent by-elections for it.

    Moreover, they only won seats in the Euro elections because of voter apathy - their actual vote was down, but because the Labour vote went down even further, they scored a slightly higher share.

    The BNP have had a lucky run recently, but hopefully last night will stem their advance a bit. The far right are basically like a wound on the body politic. You have to keep them bandaged up generally, but every now and then you have to open the bandages and inspect the wound, particularly when the body politic is otherwise ill (as I think you'd have to say it was at the moment).

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Personally, I consider it a waste of time, for several reasons.

    Firstly, the idea of freedom of expression does not create an obligation for anyone to listen. This means there is no requirement for the BNP to be given airtime on national television just because they hold an opinion. I hold a lot of opinions that are probably quite different from mainstream. I have every right to hold those opinions, but this doesn't mean that I have any expectation that I will be given a platform to express them upon. Broadcasters have every right to exercise good judgement.

    Secondly, I doubt it will have any affect on opinions. Anyone who cares can easily uncover what the BNP is really about. Anyone who doesn't won't have learnt a great deal from watching that programme. People who voted for BNP because they liked one or two of their policies, without understanding the party's core philosophy isn't likely to make a wiser choice at the next election.

    For the record, their core philosophy is that races are fundamentally, genetically different; culture is a direct product of race. Having different races living together will create significant social tension, produce unrest and violence in the society (this is precisely the argument Enoch Powell made in his "Rivers of Blood" speech). This philosophy leads them to blame most of the UK's ills on the impact of 'impure races' on the society (this is precisely the argument Hitler made to justify the holocaust - something Nick Griffin denies every happened). Therefore, the appropriate approach is segregation. As the original inhabitants of the UK were white anglo-saxons, the UK should be preserved for people who fit that category. Consequently, they want to introduce a raft of regulations and laws that will privilege white anglo-saxons. This means opposing immigration, retracting a bunch of race relations and equal opportunity laws and so on. By definition, this is racist: they consider race to be a critical, defining category of human nature.

    Personally, that philosophy is more than enough for me to form a judgement on the BNP, without needing to know much about their specific policies.

    Thirdly, by putting the BNP in the legitimate media this does, to some extent, legitimate their views. This is quite different from the approach with Sinn Fein who were bought in to mainstream politics on the condition that they renounced violence as a legitimate means for furthering their aims (yes, I know it was much more complex than that, but the point stands). If the BNP were prepared to renounce their core philosophy, then some of their other policies might be worth considering; they are at least worth discussion. But without that renunciation, they are simply a bunch of opportunistic racists being given national media coverage because they snagged less than 1% of the vote in the last election.

    Fourthly, the hostile environment faced by the BNP on Question Time could easily serve to cultivate sympathy. Those who know the BNP for what they are would have seen the show very differently from those who either are ignorant of their political philosophy or actively support it. This hostile environment was inevitable: a panel of thinking, informed people are almost always going to be hostile to the BNP.

    Given the results of the show were all completely predictable before the show, it seems to have been of little benefit. I doubt many people came out of the show with their sympathies against the BNP strengthened.

    If the BNP ever got a hint of power, I wonder if I'd be repatriated to the colonies?

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    The elections they won seats in recently were for the European Parliament, not Westminster. Unless perhaps you mean Westminster City Council, though I couldn't find evidence of any recent by-elections for it.


    I think Dance Demon may have meant the London Assembly. Richard Barnbrook of the BNP party is a member of this body.

    http://www.london.gov.uk/assembly/me...barnbrookr.jsp

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Moreover, they only won seats in the Euro elections because of voter apathy - their actual vote was down, but because the Labour vote went down even further, they scored a slightly higher share.


    MEPs are elected by a system of proportional representation which is different from the UK parliament first-past-the-post system. This means that voter apathy towards the main parties is much more likely to result in BNP victory.

    The electorate get the MEPs they deserve. If people are too apathetic to get off their behind and vote then they are assisting the BNP.

    New-Labour are painfully aware that following the next election they may spend the next generation out of power. As a form of damage limitation they have been considering a referendum to change the UK parliament from first-past-the-post to proportional representation. This would not only dilute any conservative advantage in elections that follow 2010 but also significantly increase the possibility of BNP MPs in Westminster
    Last edited by Bubble; 23rd-October-2009 at 01:07 PM. Reason: Fix London Assembly web link

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    I saw on facebook a few weeks ago.

    "Schoolboys punished with detention for refusing to kneel in class and pray to Allah", Does anyone know if that's actually true? It's a Daily Mail headline so a large pinch of salt is probably required. (see 2.56 of the link)

    With regards to last nights?

    1. Dimbleby was biased when he should have been impartial.
    2. Jack Straw avoided answering the immigration question three times, thus fuelling further support for Nick Griffin
    3. Nick Griffin was ill prepared, flustered and generally bullied by the panel and the audience which may get him the sympathy vote.

    All in all I think Nick Griffin will see this as a success and it doesn't help that the Labour party have failed to deliver on their immigration policies over the last 10 years.

    I would never vote for the BNP, I think Nick Griffin is vile and the BNP should at the very least have someone credible to front them, but I do hope that Labour and The Conservatives see this as a wake up call and start thinking more and actually doing something with immigration, otherwise the BNP could be laughing all the way to Westminster.

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    ...the BNP should at the very least have someone credible to front them...
    Do you think anyone credible would front the BNP?

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Do you think anyone credible would front the BNP?
    I don't know. Perhaps an alternative could be a new "moderate" party not connected to the BNP, but a party that are prepared to address the immigration issues that the Conservatives and Labour keep avoiding.

    I think it's generally accepted that not everyone who votes for the BNP are racist, some vote for the BNP purely because they are just fed up with the way the country is at the moment and no party apart from the BNP are brave enough to speak about it.

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Do you think anyone credible would front the BNP?
    Mr. Hitler was quite credible. But racism did not define him, making Germany great did. Nick Griffin seems to be a tiny tiny man in comparison. Just as well really

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Mr. Hitler was quite credible. But racism did not define him, making Germany great did. Nick Griffin seems to be a tiny tiny man in comparison. Just as well really
    DAILY TELEGRAPH October 16th

    50 most annoying things about the internet
    Last month we listed 50 things being killed by the internet. Now here's a selection of the trends we wish could be consigned to the waste bin - the most annoying things on the web.

    By Matthew Moore
    Published: 7:00AM BST 16 Oct 2009
    Comments 74 | Comment on this article

    1) 'Worse than the Nazis'
    "As an [online] discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." So states Godwin's Law, the observation first made in 1990 that still stands today. Many online communities counter this moronic rhetorical device by ruling that the first person to make a Hitler comparison loses the argument by default.

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post

    I think Dance Demon may have meant the London Assembly. Richard Barnbrook of the BNP party is a member of this body.

    http://www.london.gov.uk/assembly/me...barnbrookr.jsp



    MEPs are elected by a system of proportional representation which is different from the UK parliament first-past-the-post system. This means that voter apathy towards the main parties is much more likely to result in BNP victory.

    The electorate get the MEPs they deserve. If people are too apathetic to get off their behind and vote then they are assisting the BNP.

    New-Labour are painfully aware that following the next election they may spend the next generation out of power. As a form of damage limitation they have been considering a referendum to change the UK parliament from first-past-the-post to proportional representation. This would not only dilute any conservative advantage in elections that follow 2010 but also significantly increase the possibility of BNP MPs in Westminster
    Yes, I'm well aware of how MEPs are elected.

    To correct your point at the end, there's a common misconception concerning what Labour are offering as voting reform. What they are offering is not proportional representation, but the Alternative Vote system, which can be even less proportional than FPTP.

    Take a look at the results from the Australian House of Representatives, probably the biggest political institution where it is used, to see the effect. Whilst AV is a decent system for electing a single officer (like a President or Mayor) for electing a representative assembly it's bloody awful.

    Brown is presumably only offering it, because it's more likely to preserve a Labour majority (on the basis that Lib Dems/Greens/SNP/PC voters are generally more likely to prefer Labour to the Tories).

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    So states Godwin's Law, the observation first made in 1990 that still stands today. Many online communities counter this moronic rhetorical device by ruling that the first person to make a Hitler comparison loses the argument by default.
    yes we are all familiar with godwins law - but it tends not to apply in threads about right wing nazi sympathizers...

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    Re: A Little Bit of Politics – BNP on Question Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    yes we are all familiar with godwins law - but it tends not to apply in threads about right wing nazi sympathizers...
    Well, I think that Godwins law is even more likely to be true in threads about right wing nazi sympathisers!

    PS: Not sure who "we" refers to? Do you mean all the members of this Forum?

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