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Thread: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

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    Question Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    I was just thinking about some comments posted on another post about lack of opportunity for females to get the discount offers. How fair is this, certainly could not get away with it as an employer because it is discrimination.

    Having said that I also want to go to events where it is reasonably gender balanced because it is no fun trying to be on your marks at the beginning of each song! I'm sure it's not that much fun for men either not being able to get a break.

    On the whole I think the gender balancing tactics work but as a female they are annoying in as much as I have to book a weekender as soon as the bookings go live meaning Ceroc sometimes have my money for a year. Where as normally men do not have to think about it until a few weeks before.

    Maybe there is some other way to reward frequent female bookers such as a Loyalty discount.

    What do others think?

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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    I think the way it works now is the fairest way.

    If you're a female and you either a) Don't want to find a man to book with b) can't be bothered to find a man to book with c) can't find a man to book with, then you'll just have to book early.

    We all have to make sacrifices. My sacrifice, for example, is I don't go to freestyle events where I have to pay in advance, just in case I get let down for child care arrangements and have to forfeit the money, which has happened several times in the past. This means I miss out on some great events, but that's just the way it is, I don't expect special treatment, just because I have children and I don't see why women should get special treatment because they don't have, for whatever reason, a bloke to go with.

    I'm reminded of the first couple of Camber events I went to (Franko, not Ceroc). I went to ask one guy for a dance and the ratio of men to women was so bad, some other desperate bint came barging in and literally pushed me out of the way shouting "I'm next!" and wrenched the bloke out of my grip! Another guy I asked was so knackered because he literally didn't have a chance to stop for a drink before another woman grabbed him for a dance simple said to me "Oh for F*ck's sake" when I asked him for a dance. After that I gave up trying.

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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    I was just thinking about some comments posted on another post about lack of opportunity for females to get the discount offers. How fair is this, certainly could not get away with it as an employer because it is discrimination.
    As far as I understand it there are just as many female discounted tickets as ther are male tickets. The problem is that they just sell out immediately they are released. This is borne out by say a Utopia Twickenham event where there is no price differentials to distort the picture and the female only places often sell out the day they are released. If that is the case then this is not discrimination IMO.
    If you speak to organisers of events generally they will tell you ladies book early and men book last minute. Don't ask me about the philosphy of that maybe the subject of another thread.

    Having said that I also want to go to events where it is reasonably gender balanced because it is no fun trying to be on your marks at the beginning of each song!
    The impression I get speaking to ladies at events is that they prefer gender balanced events, as they are the ones that generally face the problem their view is the more pertinent IMO. It would be interesting if you could attach a poll to this thread, asking about gender balancing preferences.

    On the whole I think the gender balancing tactics work but as a female they are annoying in as much as I have to book a weekender as soon as the bookings go live meaning Ceroc sometimes have my money for a year. Where as normally men do not have to think about it until a few weeks before.
    If you want a discounted ticket then paying for it way in advance is not such a big pro quo. Compare the price of the discounted tickets to the normal price. Not only that, if at a later date you can't go there is no problem selling them, Ceroc even put up a message board to facilitate this.

    Maybe there is some other way to reward frequent female bookers such as a Loyalty discount.
    There are two schools of thought here. Do you give existing people priority or do you give new people some chance at getting discounted tickets? And, if you are already in the system you are at an advantage because you get an email announcing the opening of booking lines.

    As regards non discounted tickets I agree with what DT said in her post above.

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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    I was just thinking about some comments posted on another post about lack of opportunity for females to get the discount offers. How fair is this, certainly could not get away with it as an employer because it is discrimination.
    Are discount offers for early booking ? if so, buy a ticket early. Or do you mean males get a discount offer to fill places still unsold ? if so, every business has to do that - it just seems discriminatory as partner dancing expectation is generally a member of each sex, and there are generally less men that go singly... and men are badly organised etc...

    On the whole I think the gender balancing tactics work but as a female they are annoying in as much as I have to book a weekender as soon as the bookings go live meaning Ceroc sometimes have my money for a year. Where as normally men do not have to think about it until a few weeks before.
    This isn't really a complaint, you know this is just the way of the world. If events are popular, it will be harder to get tickets - that fact that single males have no worry about getting tickets is simply an annoying fact. The alternative is 80%+ females and probably the death of the event, as you well know

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I went to ask one guy for a dance and the ratio of men to women was so bad, some other desperate bint came barging in and literally pushed me out of the way shouting "I'm next!" and wrenched the bloke out of my grip! Another guy I asked was so knackered because he literally didn't have a chance to stop for a drink before another woman grabbed him for a dance simple said to me "Oh for F*ck's sake" when I asked him for a dance.
    There's no excuse for that - whats wrong with simply "No thanks, I need a rest." ? eh ? eh ?

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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    This weekend's Southport has a "gender balanced discount" offer - if you book as a pair and turn up together, you get 33% cashback.

    I see from the booklet that the offer will be applied to Feb 2010 Southport as well - it will be interesting to see how it works out...
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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    This weekend's Southport has a "gender balanced discount" offer - if you book as a pair and turn up together, you get 33% cashback.

    I see from the booklet that the offer will be applied to Feb 2010 Southport as well - it will be interesting to see how it works out...
    yes it'll be interesting, I can't wait to hear some of the 'but' excuses

    And I wonder if they'll still be 140 unclaimed male tags over this time?

    Personally, I'd hate to go back to the day's of Franco's Cambers DT's recollection is very similar to my own! So I'm prepared to help in whatever way I need to, to prevent this happening again.

    I think the 33% cash back is a very good idea in theory. Let's hope it works in practice.
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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    I concur with Maxine's sentiments, but also recognise it as just the way things are. I might not like it, but I can't see a solution either.

    One thing that does bemuse me though is the lack of availability of share with a stranger tickets for women. I went to look at the Storm website one morning, but booking hadn't opened. I got the e-mail saying it had opened later that morning and was back in there within seconds of receiving it and those places were on hold and shortly after they'd sold out. I'd love to know how many there are, if any, and what you have to do to secure one

    And on that note, I see that if you want to book for Storm as a woman without a man, it's already too late!

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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    And on that note, I see that if you want to book for Storm as a woman without a man, it's already too late!
    Mad isn't it.

    Slight compromise, - you can still book a single apartment sharing 3 females & 1 male however

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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    IOne thing that does bemuse me though is the lack of availability of share with a stranger tickets for women. I went to look at the Storm website one morning, but booking hadn't opened. I got the e-mail saying it had opened later that morning and was back in there within seconds of receiving it and those places were on hold and shortly after they'd sold out. I'd love to know how many there are, if any, and what you have to do to secure one
    this is the point that I was making on the Southport October thread. I cannot understand why the discounted tickets for women are always on hold. I am asking the question really are the numbers of tickets put on sale for the men at 29.99 the same as that the women?

    I think the matter of gender balancing is in principal a good thing, no one wants to go to a venue and have to fight off hoards of women/men to get a dance. Gender balancing exists throughout all disciplins of dancing, although within legal terms I am not sure how it stands re equal opportunity. Perhaps some legal experts could answer that one.
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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I'm reminded of the first couple of Camber events I went to (Franko, not Ceroc). I went to ask one guy for a dance and the ratio of men to women was so bad, some other desperate bint came barging in and literally pushed me out of the way shouting "I'm next!" and wrenched the bloke out of my grip! Another guy I asked was so knackered because he literally didn't have a chance to stop for a drink before another woman grabbed him for a dance simple said to me "Oh for F*ck's sake" when I asked him for a dance. After that I gave up trying.
    Happy days, I'd dance till 5 in the morning, now I tend to pack up about 2 as by that time the ratio is so poor, if only they could have stmamina points for ladies who can stay the course.
    Last edited by DavidY; 19th-October-2009 at 05:15 PM. Reason: Fixing quote

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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    Having just come back from another weekender can definitely say that the gender balance was much more obvious and on reflection I guess I am happy to put up with the slight unfairness of the situation as it did enable me to have a brilliant weekend as there was no problem getting dances.

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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    Nightclubs and similar establishments have been running promotions offering free/cheaper admission to women for years and as far as I'm aware still do. I've never heard of any threat of legal action based on the complaint of sexual discrimination. It's just accepted as what happens. The only difference between that and the perceived discrimination at weekenders is:

    More men than women want to go to the 'meat-markets'

    More women than men want to go to the weekenders


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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    Why don't you ask the powers that run this board to put a sticky up or make a new category in Social to find a man to share with. Allowing at least forumites to book with someone they may vaguely know or who someone they know may know (cue extended descriptions gag).

    i.e.

    Storm. March 2010. (names are samples only)

    Maxine wants to go
    Fletch wants to go.
    dts reads the thread and offers to book with them.

    Beds can be moved into the lounge if you don't want to use the sofa.

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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    Why don't you ask the powers that run this board to put a sticky up or make a new category in Social to find a man to share with. Allowing at least forumites to book with someone they may vaguely know or who someone they know may know (cue extended descriptions gag).

    i.e.

    Storm. March 2010. (names are samples only)

    Maxine wants to go
    Fletch wants to go.
    dts reads the thread and offers to book with them.

    Beds can be moved into the lounge if you don't want to use the sofa.
    Now that is a good idea !
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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    Why don't you ask the powers that run this board to put a sticky up or make a new category in Social to find a man to share with. ...
    It may be implicit in what you're saying, but just to point out a that it isn't necessary to share a chalet - only to have a balancing booking.

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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    Nightclubs and similar establishments have been running promotions offering free/cheaper admission to women for years and as far as I'm aware still do. I've never heard of any threat of legal action based on the complaint of sexual discrimination. It's just accepted as what happens. The only difference between that and the perceived discrimination at weekenders is:

    More men than women want to go to the 'meat-markets'

    More women than men want to go to the weekenders

    I don't see why you consider it stirring.

    An economist should be able to show a price based mechanism is better than a rationing based mechanism here.

    The contortions necessary, because Ceroc, rightly or wrongly believe they must offer the same price, have overall costs, which if added up are unlikely to come close to the overall benefits.

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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    re:just booking, no need to share

    in that case, even better - why aren't we doing it already?

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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by rtwwpad View Post
    re:just booking, no need to share

    in that case, even better - why aren't we doing it already?
    The booking form says it doesn't apply to single occupancy so I assumed that means you do have to share. If you just need a man to book with (when it gets to the point that ladies can no longer book without a man) then I think you can book two single chalets. However my interpretation of the booklet is that to get the gender balance discount you DO need to share. I might be wrong though

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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    Nightclubs and similar establishments have been running promotions offering free/cheaper admission to women for years and as far as I'm aware still do. I've never heard of any threat of legal action based on the complaint of sexual discrimination.
    That's 'cos it's not illegal (yet). Discrimination applies to:-

    • Employment.
    • Education.
    • Goods, facilities and services.
    • Housing.
    • Public authorities.

    There is a specific exemption in the services section, which is where nightclubs and dance weekends fit:-

    • Private clubs, such as working-men's clubs and sports clubs.

    There are two further exemptions that a weasly lawyer might also apply


    • Services involving physical contact, where it may be reasonable to object if the other person was of the opposite sex.
    • Services which require a particular skill which is exercised differently for men than for women may in certain circumstances be restricted to one sex only.

    The EU in its infinite wisdom is moving to have the Private club exemption removed. There is also an exemption relating to (mainly car) insurance that it believes is incompatible with EU law.

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    Re: Gender Balancing - How Fair Is It?

    So what are the choices?

    First come first served

    No possible problems with current discrimination legislation
    Likely to have many more women than men
    Difficult to build loyal customer base

    Equal number of each gender

    Possible challenge under Human Rights legislation
    Likely to have more men in classes and more ladies dancing socially
    If ladies tickets are sold too cheaply, ladies are liable to book with phantom men
    Discourages single people if they must book in a couple

    Planned unequal numbers, male>female

    Bound to be legally challenged by somebody
    Likely to have large excess of men in classes and balanced social dancing
    Danger that one gender will gain a price advantage over the other.

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