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Thread: Ceroc predation

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    Registered User NickC's Avatar
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    Ceroc predation

    Just heard, so maybee wrong, that ceroc have gazumped ginger jive's greenham venue, how do people on this forum veiw the actions of ceroc with regards to the smaller independents

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    Re: Ceroc predation

    I'd say the rules (legal and moral) are just the same as any other business activity. Basically a person shouldn't steal parts of someone elses business.

    Of course what qualifies as 'parts of someones business' is open to debate. I'd probably classify as follows

    Can be owned by an operator:
    1. The equipment, lights, sound, van etc
    2. The mailing list (electronic or otherwise)
    3. A specific venue on a specific night
    4. The DJ and taxi dancers, to a certain extent (although this is a very complex area!)
    5. The name under which they operate

    Can't be owned by an operator:
    1. The paying dancers
    2. The same venue but on a different night

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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Quote Originally Posted by NickC View Post
    how do people on this forum veiw the actions of ceroc with regards to the smaller independents
    It's my view that some folk scream blue murder about it, but then go to all the Ceroc venues anyway.

    There are 12 Ceroc weekenders next year (three of them at Southport which used to be run by Jive Addiction, more at Camber, which Franko used to do) and you can bet your ass they will all be packed.

    Personally, I'll attend the ones that fit in with my family arrangements, I don't care who runs them...in fact, in most cases Gav or my sister deal with the arrangements so I've been to weekenders and not even known which company is running it. *shrug*

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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubble View Post
    Can be owned by an operator:
    3. A specific venue on a specific night
    But if Ginger Jive owned the venue, they wouldn't have let Ceroc hire it.

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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Quote Originally Posted by NickC View Post
    Just heard, so maybee wrong, that ceroc have gazumped ginger jive's greenham venue, how do people on this forum veiw the actions of ceroc with regards to the smaller independents
    Hi Nick, thanks for starting a thread regarding this as we all feel it’s important to present the facts rather than to engage in unsubstantiated speculation.

    Steve at the Liberty Ballroom contacted David and myself about bringing Ceroc to the Liberty Ballroom a very short while ago. The Ballroom is Steve and Lindsey’s livelihood and it is therefore important to have a high volume of footfall through the venue. Numbers at the Ginger Jive nights had apparently been dwindling.

    David and myself had contacted the Liberty 18 months ago with a view to running an extra night alongside GJ (not instead of) as we wanted to create our own franchise. As such we would have actively promoted MJ and Ceroc to the local community with busks, advertising, editorials etc that would have benefited both businesses. Robbing Peter to pay Paul would have done nobody any good so we were keen for Steve to communicate our commitment to develop new business and attract new members to Kerrin.

    GJ did not wish us to start alongside them so guaranteed the Liberty that they would devote more time and effort to promoting the venue. 18 months later this does not seem to have happened. Therefore, as the Liberty is Steve's business, he needed to make alternative arrangements and asked if we would be willing to give the venue the promotion it deserved. Since our initial contact with the Liberty Ballroom we had not been in contact again until Steve contacted us.

    We have now signed an agreement and once GJ have concluded their arrangements with the Liberty we will start teaching there two nights a week as well as running regular freestyles (dates to be announced shortly). We and Ceroc have not ‘gazumped’ Ginger Jive – the agreement is not based on the venue rental, but on the amount of promotional activity and dedication we will put into the dance nights and subsequently the venue.

    Our aim, as always, is to offer the best teaching and dance experience we can for our customers and also to help our venue managers in expanding their businesses. To this end we will be actively promoting the venue and hope to grow the MJ community as a whole in the Newbury area - which is something that many people, including local dancers, agreed seemed to be lacking at the moment.

    I hope that clarifies the issue.




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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Well, thats just boring and unsexy. Are you quite sure brown envelopes of money, threats and skullduggery were not involved. Of course, I fully expect an answer 'no' thus fueling the conspiracy theory

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    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Quote Originally Posted by NickC View Post
    Just heard, so maybee wrong, that ceroc have gazumped ginger jive's greenham venue, how do people on this forum veiw the actions of ceroc with regards to the smaller independents
    Well it isn't ideal, in that ideally there would be a wide choice of where to dance and how it was run.

    However if independents aren't getting the numbers, it is hard to blame Ceroc for trying, and if Ceroc is successful (might not be a forgone conclusion) the situation should be better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    There are 12 Ceroc weekenders next year (three of them at Southport which used to be run by Jive Addiction, more at Camber, which Franko used to do) and you can bet your ass they will all be packed.
    7 mainstream weekenders (+Swish and Lux which are really in different markets).

    Rather a different situation.
    Last edited by frodo; 30th-September-2009 at 10:05 PM. Reason: Factual correction

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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Well, thats just boring and unsexy. Are you quite sure brown envelopes of money, threats and skullduggery were not involved. Of course, I fully expect an answer 'no' thus fueling the conspiracy theory
    I prefer the sexual favours twist on the conspiracy. That Rocky offered his body to Steve..........(no wonder it took 18 months)

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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    There are 12 Ceroc weekenders next year (three of them at Southport which used to be run by Jive Addiction, more at Camber, which Franko used to do) and you can bet your ass they will all be packed.

    Personally, I'll attend the ones that fit in with my family arrangements, I don't care who runs them
    7 mainstream weekenders (+Swish and Lux which are really in different markets).

    Rather a different situation.
    When the points were that:

    • there are plenty of weekenders and they'll all be packed,
    • and that people will choose to attend whichever ones are most convenient, regardless of who runs them.

    Then I think that the different between 7(+2 ) weekenders and 12 isn't really a different situation at all.

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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Ginger Jive's statement on the subject:

    http://www.gingerjive.com/pages/float.php?floatID=66

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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Marmite View Post
    Ginger Jive's statement on the subject:

    http://www.gingerjive.com/pages/float.php?floatID=66
    I think it basically backs up what Val said, so DS, looks like the sex, dirty money and skulduggery theory's have come to an abrupt end
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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I think it basically backs up what Val said, so DS, looks like the sex, dirty money and skulduggery theory's have come to an abrupt end
    nonsense, the more facts that come out for a perfectly innocent explanation, the more conspiracy theorists can say "Its awfully convenient don't you think" and "well, they would say that to cover up".

    I point you toward the September 11th conspiracy theories.

    Humans, bah. Overrated.

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    Re: Ceroc predation

    As a company Ginger Jive are not in the habit of airing our dirty linen in public but we would just like to have the chance to say what happened.

    In our statement, yes we could have bad mouthed Ceroc, but it’s too pathetic to get into a public slanging match and the end of the day everyone knows “it’s all about the money”. I think that Ceroc forget that a lot of us have been dancing for around 16 years and we have watched them time and time again “acquire” other organisations jive nights and weekenders. Of course Ceroc would run down our nights - they are hardly going to admit to “acquiring” a ready-made market. We hear that they have had the idea of maybe running a “challenging” jive night - so would that been the same as our popular advanced jive night that has been running with Mick Wenger and Jon Brett for the past year?

    Lets just get down to the facts:

    In July 2008 Cerocs offer for all THREE nights at the ballroom was triple the average rent on Tuesday and double rent on Wednesdays and Thursdays with a large cheque with lots of noughts on the table which was declined (and yes the venue did tell us how much it was for). We can only assume that the September 09 offer was more lucrative.

    We are currently sourcing new venues for our nights and are excited now that we are able to expand into new areas.

    So now you know. We’ll let the dancers throughout the country decide who’s version they wish to believe!

    Quote Originally Posted by Val Rokov View Post
    Hi Nick, thanks for starting a thread regarding this as we all feel it’s important to present the facts rather than to engage in unsubstantiated speculation.

    Steve at the Liberty Ballroom contacted David and myself about bringing Ceroc to the Liberty Ballroom a very short while ago. The Ballroom is Steve and Lindsey’s livelihood and it is therefore important to have a high volume of footfall through the venue. Numbers at the Ginger Jive nights had apparently been dwindling.

    David and myself had contacted the Liberty 18 months ago with a view to running an extra night alongside GJ (not instead of) as we wanted to create our own franchise. As such we would have actively promoted MJ and Ceroc to the local community with busks, advertising, editorials etc that would have benefited both businesses. Robbing Peter to pay Paul would have done nobody any good so we were keen for Steve to communicate our commitment to develop new business and attract new members to Kerrin.

    GJ did not wish us to start alongside them so guaranteed the Liberty that they would devote more time and effort to promoting the venue. 18 months later this does not seem to have happened. Therefore, as the Liberty is Steve's business, he needed to make alternative arrangements and asked if we would be willing to give the venue the promotion it deserved. Since our initial contact with the Liberty Ballroom we had not been in contact again until Steve contacted us.

    We have now signed an agreement and once GJ have concluded their arrangements with the Liberty we will start teaching there two nights a week as well as running regular freestyles (dates to be announced shortly). We and Ceroc have not ‘gazumped’ Ginger Jive – the agreement is not based on the venue rental, but on the amount of promotional activity and dedication we will put into the dance nights and subsequently the venue.

    Our aim, as always, is to offer the best teaching and dance experience we can for our customers and also to help our venue managers in expanding their businesses. To this end we will be actively promoting the venue and hope to grow the MJ community as a whole in the Newbury area - which is something that many people, including local dancers, agreed seemed to be lacking at the moment.

    I hope that clarifies the issue.



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    Re: Ceroc predation


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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post

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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    nonsense, the more facts that come out for a perfectly innocent explanation, the more conspiracy theorists can say "Its awfully convenient don't you think" and "well, they would say that to cover up".

    I point you toward the September 11th conspiracy theories.

    Humans, bah. Overrated.
    I think some people cant see the wood for the trees

    We have a first post at 12.08pm 1+2+8 = 11

    When in September

    Conclusion 11th September all over again , need we say more ?

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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post


    Do we still have prize for the best use of Smiles

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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post


    Do we still have prize for the best use of Smiles
    Oo, oo, can I play?








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    Re: Ceroc predation

    HAAAAA
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    Re: Ceroc predation

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    When the points were that:

    • there are plenty of weekenders and they'll all be packed,
    • and that people will choose to attend whichever ones are most convenient, regardless of who runs them.

    Then I think that the different between 7(+2 ) weekenders and 12 isn't really a different situation at all.
    Details make a lot of diffference. 7 weekenders may represent a contraction of the market, if anything, so it would be unsurprising if they were all full.

    It isn't necessarily 'plenty of weekenders' compared to past years.

    Who runs them isn't important per se, but as they don't run them in the same way, it matters. ie. If I go to a Jive Addiction weekender the classes will definitely be worthwhile. This is not true of Ceroc, hence it matters who runs it.

    But that is probably best discussed in another thread, hence I limited the scope of my comment.

    * *

    On the subject of the thread it looks like Ginger Jive ran more than just Modern Jive there. I wouldn't expect Ceroc to do so, so it matters here also.

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