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Thread: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

  1. #81
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Hmmmm sound like the classical vertical integration strategy that was all the rage in 60s and 70s .... by companies that now seem to be going bust
    Depends who's doing the managing - also suspect they didn't have the right drug dealers in place..

  2. #82
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Yes if I'm buying a packet of McVities rich tea biscuits (and very nice they are too dunked into my morning mug) from Waitrose, I am both a customer of Waitrose AND Mcvities - but which has the power? Biscuit manufacturers are two a penny whereas dsitribution chains like Waitrose aren't. Mcvities gets ALL it's customers from distrinbution chains like this and if they stopped distributing Mcvities would have NO customers.
    Well they would have no customers through Waitrose, but could still sell through Tesco, Asda, Farmfoods etc...etc...in fact, aren't shops that sell biscuits "two a penny" too ? More over - McVities is a famous enough name that people clearly look for it, so Waitrose may lost customers as they go elsewhere to get the their biscuits ... and get the rest of their shop too.

    ...also, does that mean ALL dancers are rich tea biscuits ? I always saw myself as more of a bourbon kinda guy. Gus is a jammy dodger and you would be one of those bitter biscuits that someone gives you for Xmas that they got from abroad because it came in a nice packet This biscuit analogy is rubbish...

    so it clearly is something we should pursue. So forum people - what kind of biscuit are you ?

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    Registered User MarkW's Avatar
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ... I fully understand Amir's point, I just don't think it's correct other than in a literal sense.

    ...

    Are you saying that you think that Amir's point is both incorrect and also literally correct?

  4. #84
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    , I am both a customer of Waitrose AND Mcvities - :
    I don't think so, you are a customer of Waitrose

    Waitrose is a customer of United Biscuits, who make Mcvities

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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    I don't think so, you are a customer of Waitrose

    How do you know he doesn't eat biscuits by the truck load and have them on special order direct from the factory ?

  6. #86
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Aww, you guys... you know exactly what I mean.. and you know I'm right, and I know that you know I'm right..

    As it happens I'm about to have a rich tea and then I'm spending all night leafleting Newbury for our launch there week after next. Got to get me hooks into those new dancers.. they're MY precious...

  7. #87
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    If your point is that they put SP on the map as a dance weekender venue, then yes they did. But they made the mistake of viewing SP as a short term cash cow which meant that they did not expand their relationship with Pontins to take on other venues, and they did not leverage the goodwill generated from SP to create their own customer base.
    While playing catch up there was quite a lot of drivel to get through on this thread (cant all that circular argument be put in the 'does god exist thread' ?).

    Anyway had JA in June 2006 look at Camber/Bognor/dance classes etc who knows what the market would look like now.

    I didnt go to Southport in October as Partner was in hospital but I notice 'complaints' re the fun fair that ceroc had put in there.

    Thats fine but at least it suggest to me Ceroc 'added' something almost like a thankyou for the support.

    Who needs 'hard core' when 'soft core' seems to work , I didnt here many people c*m home too early from Southport ?'

  8. #88
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Anyway had JA in June 2006 look at Camber/Bognor/dance classes etc who knows what the market would look like now.
    erm, who's S38's official interpreter this season? I need help

    I didnt go to Southport in October as Partner was in hospital but I notice 'complaints' re the fun fair that ceroc had put in there.
    Ok, I think i've understood this bit and basically, i don't think anyone complained that the funfair was a particularly BAD thing (apart from maybe Fletch, as it obscured her view ) I just think people weren't that bothered about it and didn't really understand why Ceroc had gone to the effort?

    Thats fine but at least it suggest to me Ceroc 'added' something almost like a thankyou for the support.
    Yes,most people said, its a nice idea, if you like that sort of thing!

    Who needs 'hard core' when 'soft core' seems to work , I didnt here many people c*m home too early from Southport ?'
    Nope, that's it, you've lost me again
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  9. #89
    Commercial Operator Swinging bee's Avatar
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    the longer term belongs to Ceroc ... they are a well established club, better venue and massively better instructors and DJ ...

    This is of course a personal opinion, there are those who will disagree of course...like me!

  10. #90
    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    ...What is unique in the Modern Jive scene is that due to Ceroc owning such a huge market share, when they moved into the weekender market they did actually have a larger degree of control over their source market. They can guarantee access, and go a long way to limiting marketing access to competitors ...
    Which would be ... like ... cross selling, right??

    And yes, as Gus says, a company could try to corner an entire package of a particular product. So a buscuit company could buy out some farms, and mills, in order to obtain cheap flour. But, how far do you go? Buy a sugar beet farm, and sugar refinery, then a manufacturer of food mixing machines, and ovens. Oh, then buy out a distribution chain.

    Well, I now see a problem!!! In order to control the entire chain, I have to start owning and controlling a wide variety of diverse operations. What happens to my focus? Where does that go? I guess this would have been the main reason for those companies in the 80s going bust .... loss of focus.

    To my mind, the biscuit analogy matches the modern jive world quite poorly at best, as the modern jive world is narrow, both in terms of other supporting businesses and market penetration into the general populace (at the moment). The only dance markets that I can think of are:

    teaching teachers
    lessons (both single, and intense, eg weekend)
    freestyles
    competition
    weekenders
    holidays
    shoes

    It seems to me that there is significant overlap for all but one of these. And one of those, lessons, is generally done poorly at best* (IMO).

    And so, I'd guess, that any medium sized organisation should, in practice, be able to control all significant aspects of a single dance hobby within a particular area.

    However, it may be worth remembering that folk are fickle, Modern Jive is not the only dance style available, and there will always be (at least) local competition, no matter how small.

    If CEROC, as an organisation, is still operating as a significant playing the the dance market in 25-30 years time, then it will have proved it's efficacy (in my mind).



    * [Clearly steps are only a small, if important, element of couple dancing as well as being relatively easy to teach. The inter-partner dynamic is by far the most important, most difficult to teach with steepest learning curve and corresponding lack of immediate/short term results.]

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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Well that depends... If I ran the best University in the Country and year on year saw the standard of available students dropping, what effect would that have on my 'brand'?
    Not much effect, since you would still be getting the best out of ‘not as good as they used to be’ students and would still be the best university. If you mean all the best students were now staying overseas to go to competing universities, that obviously would mean you were no longer considered as good as you were. In my opinion you should focus on regaining your reputation, instead of wasting effort starting up primary schools. What would be the point, since your graduates from the your super-schools would just go overseas as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    You can run your business anyway you like but unless you have control over every facet of that business you will always be vunerable.
    In a capitalist society you can't control every facet of your business. What you decide to try control depends on your circumstances.

    For example, Ceroc does not own the venues it uses. It would not make sense for the same obvious reasons that it does not make sense for a dance shoe company to try control all the dance schools they sell to.

    Vertical integration seems to make sense to a company that is big enough to attempt it; but in most cases a business is in the best position to judge whether such an attempt is a worthwhile risk or not. So far, Ceroc seems to think building or owning its own venues would be a waste of resources, and almost all organizers of large scale weekenders seem to think that organizing their own network of schools would be too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I'm certain you undertstand this or maybe you're being delibrately obtuse or having a bad hair day...
    Actually I can do both those things without any deliberate effort. But in this case I genuinely think that weekender organizers would be wasting their time and resources in trying to compete with Ceroc in the national dance school market.

    Although they may lose some venues due to Ceroc’s greater resources or negotiation skills, in the long run it seems to me at least to make more sense to strive to find alternative venues and offer alternative products and innovate within the field they specialize in.

    Time, as they say, shall tell.

  12. #92
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Bunch of slack jawed, long haired, crew cut, vegetarian, meat eating, coffee drinking, tea swilling, save the whales, nuke the lot of them, barking dog, whining pussies.

    If I missed insulting anybody insert in space --------, --------.

    This is really simple pips......If you don't like Ceroc week nights and weekender's don't go.

    Rocky lets shoot the lot of them and let God sort them out.

    God bless us everyone.

    I mean could I be more clearer?

    DTS XXx Xxx

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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    erm, who's S38's official interpreter this season? I need help

    Ok, I think i've understood this bit and basically, i don't think anyone complained that the funfair was a particularly BAD thing (apart from maybe Fletch, as it obscured her view ) I just think people weren't that bothered about it and didn't really understand why Ceroc had gone to the effort?

    Yes,most people said, its a nice idea, if you like that sort of thing!

    Nope, that's it, you've lost me again
    Did JA when they were at their peak approach Pontins re other venues ? I think not.

    I'm not suggesting people thought it was a bad thing, what it shows to me is ceroc will (if they have some surplus money) do something with it rather then put it in the bank.

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    Commercial Operator Swinging bee's Avatar
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Originally Posted by Amir
    ...What is unique in the Modern Jive scene is that due to Ceroc owning such a huge market share, when they moved into the weekender market they did actually have a larger degree of control over their source market. They can guarantee access, and go a long way to limiting marketing access to competitors ...

    As far as market share goes I copy statistics form John Sweeneys Modernjive.com...


    Weekly classes: 450 (Ceroc has 42% with 187 nights against 263 others)


    mmmm food for thought eh!

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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Swinging bee View Post
    As far as market share goes I copy statistics form John Sweeneys Modernjive.com...


    Weekly classes: 450 (Ceroc has 42% with 187 nights against 263 others)


    mmmm food for thought eh!
    I run 3 of the 263. And that is the problem. Most of the others run 1, 2, 3, etc. We don't have the critical mass to take on someone who runs 187 nights. You might say "let's all work together". I can't wait to meet the cat herder who can pull off that particular miracle

    This situation reminds me of when I moved to Hull in 1984 - except it was the other way around. There was a local chain of supermarkets called Grandways. Every street seemed to have a Grandways store. And there was no Tesco, Sainsburys, etc.

    During the 8 years of our residence in Hull we saw the arrival of a giant Tesco and Sainsburys. These stores were massive compared to Grandways and they obviously had a longer-term plan and deeper pockets than Grandways. So we saw Grandways gradually disappear in a cloud of cheaper and cheaper offers.

    There was also a small chain of burger bars that did unique and fabulous chips - they disappeared when McDonalds moved into town

    Of course Ceroc is not Tesco. Not least because they are a franchise operation. Rather like McDonalds, but with Rocky as the clown rather than Ronald

    If Grandways couldn't compete on their home ground what chance would they have if they had tried to move into an area that already had a Tesco, Sainsburys, etc?

    Ceroc do have a tried and tested formula for success. And most franchise holders have made a long-term commitment to the success of their business. If you take on Ceroc you must have these in place at the very least. There is no time for a suck-it-and-see approach. And you need some kind of USP. You're the new kid on the block and, if you want current dancers to attend your nights you need to offer them a difference.

    Of course the best strategy would have been to recruit new dancers and build your own business rather than try to attract dancers who are currently loyal to the existing classes. This is because the dance market is nothing like the food market. We all need to eat and already shop somewhere. When you open your new store you need to get people to switch. The Modern Jive market is driven by new dancers*. If you are not recruiting new dancers and going for existing dancers you are segmenting an already small market place. Even more difficult, you are trying to get existing dancers to change their habits. Unsurprisingly, you are very likely to fail


    *I'm going to say this again and put it in BOLD & RED as it's so important: THE MODERN JIVE MARKET IS DRIVEN BY NEW DANCERS.

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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Did JA when they were at their peak approach Pontins re other venues ? I think not.

    I'm not suggesting people thought it was a bad thing, what it shows to me is ceroc will (if they have some surplus money) do something with it rather then put it in the bank.
    Aye aye then is it that you is becoming a Ceroc supporter than Stuart my cuddly little sausage, my little fried egg sandwich on a cold and frosty morning.

    If you are my lover....Welcome aboard, report to the armoury, praise the Lord and pass the machine gun bullets.

    DTS XXX XXX Peace thro superior fire power, or is that thro superior dance tactics.

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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    DTS XXX XXX Peace thro superior fire power, or is that thro superior dance tactics.
    To paraphrase Roosevelt;

    Dance softly but carry a big gun in your pocket

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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    To paraphrase Roosevelt;

    Dance softly but carry a big gun in your pocket
    You're still lovely you are.

    Come the day of reckoning you'll be ok mate.

    DTS XXXX XXXX

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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    .... lets shoot the lot of them and let God sort them out.
    Well get on with it, this thread is getting a bit tiney bit repetitive

  20. #100
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Swinging bee View Post
    As far as market share goes I copy statistics form John Sweeneys Modernjive.com...


    Weekly classes: 450 (Ceroc has 42% with 187 nights against 263 others)


    mmmm food for thought eh!
    Let's not start on statistics! The number of venues is less relevant than the through put of dancers. You might have 3 venues a week catering for 50 dancers at a time and I may have one venue night a week with 200 dancers - who has the largest market share in that scenario?

    Likewise, your statistic does not take into account the crossover of dancers between dance nights, so it's a pretty pooey example really..

    Food for thought indeed - MickieD's anyone? (now where's my ginger wig, spinning bow tie and UP sized shoes...)

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