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Thread: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

  1. #101
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Swinging bee View Post
    Originally Posted by Amir
    ...What is unique in the Modern Jive scene is that due to Ceroc owning such a huge market share, when they moved into the weekender market they did actually have a larger degree of control over their source market. They can guarantee access, and go a long way to limiting marketing access to competitors ...

    As far as market share goes I copy statistics form John Sweeneys Modernjive.com...


    Weekly classes: 450 (Ceroc has 42% with 187 nights against 263 others)


    mmmm food for thought eh!
    So far I have come across 5 local independent venues that were not listed on www.modernjive.com until I told them it existed.

    They are even worse at informing John that they no longer exist.

  2. #102
    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ...
    Likewise, your statistic does not take into account the crossover of dancers between dance nights, so it's a pretty pooey example really..
    ...)
    Maybe ... but, quite frankly, it's the best we've got!

    Maybe the tolerance is 1% (unlikely), maybe 10-15% (more likely). It certainly does illustrate, quite crudely, I grant, the importance of CEROC in the Modern Jive market.

  3. #103
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    Well get on with it, this thread is getting a bit tiney bit repetitive
    Which leads us to

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    this thread is getting a bit tiny bit repetitive
    based on

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    This thread is getting a bit tiney bit bit repetitived
    which leads us to

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    This thread is getting a bit bit tinney bit bit repetitive
    based on

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    this thread is getting a bit bit bit tiney bit bit repetitive
    Last edited by stewart38; 7th-November-2009 at 06:36 PM.

  4. #104
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Let's not start on statistics! ...
    I worked as aan I.T. contractor for insurance companies and British Sugar. For those companies statistics were a foundation of their business.

    I also had the privelege of working on the Cerocc database, even before it was the Ceroc database. I know how valuable statistics are, and could be to Ceroc.

    AFIK some Ceroc franchisees do not even run a database, and those that do do did not share data when I was doing that work. That meant that franchisees did not know reliably how many dancers visits were crossovers even within Ceroc. The fact that the membership form did not ask about crossovers from other dance forms or MJ venues was another #FAIL in my eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ... Likewise, your statistic does not take into account the crossover of dancers between dance nights, so it's a pretty pooey example really.. ...
    Ugly, very ugly pooey is how I saw that.

    The major issue with that failing was that franchisees do not see reliable info that would tell them thatit was time to open a second night in an area. Ceroc makes less money and MJ expands slower than it could.

    Nevertheless Ceroc franchisees have a pretty good idea of the market in an and if they do not see a strong case for opening another night in an area it should serve as a cautionary warning to anybody setting up to compete.

    ---------- Social networking ----

    We now have independents making very good use of social networking sites like Facebook. These are an excellent way of getting followings from existing dancers and for attracting new ones. They have a considerable value in market research, finding out how much interest there is, and where it is concentrated. They are also a conduit for information about available venues and promotional opportunities and other aspects of the dance business.

    There is no excuse for plunging in and hoping. Opening a new venue has got much easier and less risky if the tools available are used.

    ------- climbing the ladder ----------

    They start as dancers. They help beginners. They become teachers. They open their own venue.

    What they do not do is climb the extra rung,use their hard earned expertise to train others to open their own venues. I recommend those aspiring to run their own venue to take onboard the Michael Gerber philosophy of running a business as though you were going to franchise it, run as a business, not "your own business", and from the start look for "dogs". You cannot herd cats, but dogs will run in a pack. Ceroc has little to fear from the odd "cool cat", but pacts (sic) of dogs ...

    Todd, for instance, alleges he reached critical mass very early on, and attracted lots of beginners. There is a market for how to do that. Others independents can share DJ experience, and social media experience, general administration and they know what else. It only takes one weak area to fail, and "jacks of all trades" should seek out masters of some.

  5. #105
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    What they do not do is climb the extra rung,use their hard earned expertise to train others to open their own venues.
    I've done this. There's quite a few venues being run by people I've trained. In the main it's been very successful with classes being run by people I've trained in many parts of SE England. My objective has always been to increase the size of the MJ market locally. The more classes there are the bigger the market and the more dancers there will be.

    The, probably inevitable, downside is that I now have a competitor in the same venue as my Thursday night. This night has been running for over 10 years as I took it over from Graham LeClerc over 5 years ago. My competitor is there every Monday and Wednesday and one Saturday a month. His strategy seems to be based on attracting existing dancers, mostly from me. He poached my crew, came to our nights and gave out free tickets to his nights and some of his crew bad-mouth me and my wife to anyone who will listen

    What am I doing? Looking for a new venue that will promise, in writing, that they will not allow any other MJ organisation access. And I'm only training teachers who will sign an agreement that they will comply with the Constitution of the LeRoc Federation, even if they are not members. The constitution says that you can not open up in the same venue as another member or within one mile.

  6. #106
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    ... What am I doing? Looking for a new venue that will promise, in writing, that they will not allow any other MJ organisation access. And I'm only training teachers who will sign an agreement that they will comply with the Constitution of the LeRoc Federation, even if they are not members. The constitution says that you can not open up in the same venue as another member or within one mile.
    As I posted I have done lots of analysis on stats. I know how far the average member travels around here. 1 mile in the CC area is laughable. There were several venues that did not have any members within a mile of the venue. That revelation led to an extensive local leaflet campaign, which, AFIK, was very unsuccessful. I was off the case before the results came in.

    I had warned that the leaflet design was against proven successful principles, and urged design testing. One of the problems faced by small businesses is that graphic designers are often not trained in selling. One reason for this is that flashy design does not usually work. There are some excellent videos on youtube and other sites that show eyetracking research. Faces and newspaper like text are two key elements for getting the message read. Storytelling, comparative testing and measuring results are others.

    I have had great difficulty even finding Ceroc fliers amongst table top displays at our local Corn Exchange, knowing they are there and looking for them. The same design mistakes abound. They vanish in the pile. The prize organisers should be after is a new customer clutching a coupon, not unheard praise for style or humour.

    You should be able to read the headline of an ad from the other side of a largish room. An ad has to catch someones eye that is not looking for it, but is interested in the subject.

  7. #107
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    As I posted I have done lots of analysis on stats. I know how far the average member travels around here. 1 mile in the CC area is laughable.
    I thought that when I read it in the constitution. However, some city centres and places like London have the population density which would allow successful classes within one mile of each other on different nights and could probably support 2 successful classes on the same night. Out here on the coast we probably need 5-10 miles distance between classes on the same night to avoid competition.

    On the subject of travelling distances. I find that this is very different for new and experienced dancers. New dancers do not travel very far at all in response to advertising. They travel further if they heard about us from a friend. Once people have been dancing for a while they are prepared to travel long distances to get a decent lesson. We have experienced dancers coming to our Worthing and Shoreham classes who travel for an hour to get to us.

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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Todd, for instance, alleges he reached critical mass very early on, and attracted lots of beginners.
    That's not actually what I said. Lots of beginners - yes. Packed the place out on the opening night - yes. Critical Mass? Far to early to start making a claim like that. Packing the place out on one night and hitting critical mass are two very different things!

    In my experience, critical mass can take something like 6-12 months and often a lot longer. We've only been running the new venue for a month now - early indications are extremely positive. Still way to early to start thinking things like "Critical Mass"
    Last edited by Tiggerbabe; 9th-November-2009 at 07:24 PM. Reason: Removed advert.

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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by todd View Post
    Still way to early to start thinking things like "Critical Mass"
    Critical Mass.... just another name for the Forum innit?

  10. #110
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Critical Mass.... just another name for the Forum innit?
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
    "If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine

  11. #111
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Critical Mass....
    .. terbator.

    Another name for Rocky?




    Sorry Rocky, I couldn't resist

  12. #112
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    Re: Hard core marketing - taking on an established Ceroc club

    Interesting that threads are affected by gravity - they start at head or heart, then ...

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