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Thread: HHO Conversion

  1. #21
    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
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    Re: HHO Conversion

    I have plans to run a vehicle off nothing but hot air... the problem is I keep driving into WiFi dead zones and my access to the forum drops out..


  2. #22
    The Dashing Moderator
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    Re: HHO Conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    With people claiming to run their cars off nothing but this.
    But as I understand it from what you've said, this method seems to be converting water into H+H+O, and then burning it to release energy and get back water again. Unless they're feeding it with energy from another source, anyone running their car off this exclusively is driving around in a perpetual motion machine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Nothing mysterious about it, it's just like putting NOS in the car
    But NOS comes ready made - someone has used energy to put it into a cylinder (or whatever).

    This method is taking energy from the car's own electrical system, which in turn comes from fuel and increases the overall MPG. (In the long term, anyway - in the short term you can take energy out of the battery by discharging it and get a short-term increase in MPG.)

    Obviously you can put energy in via the secondary route of charging a battery, but the energy in a fully charged battery still won't move a car very far.
    Love dance, will travel

  3. #23
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    Re: HHO Conversion

    The water & Salt or other catalyst acts as a solid fuel, just like coal etc.

    The power you are taking from the battery is not going directly back in to the engine, it is going in to turning the solid fuel in to a gas.

    Adding a flame to this gas causing the explosion is what gives the power which can be greater than the power put in to turning the water in to gas. The downside is, you soon run out of water/catalyst agent.

    Also the other thing is the way alternators work with car battery's is that they charge when idle and downhill runs etc, even if your not putting much of a charge on the battery therefore you are putting 'wasted' energy back in to the car.

    Im not saying this is all worth doing or will make a big difference in MPG but I am willing to give it a try .

    At the mo, im just building my second unit, but need to find a good catalyst agent that can be obtained from the local shops without being accused of terrorist activites. On that subject can anyone tell me if Bicarbinate of soda is the same as Baking Soda.

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    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
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    Re: HHO Conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    On that subject can anyone tell me if Bicarbinate of soda is the same as Baking Soda.
    I know nothing about cars... but I do know a bit about baking glad my cross over skills can be of some use to you

    Baking SODA is sodium bicarbonate. Baking POWDER is Sodium bicarbonate with the addition of other chemicals that aid in the production of carbon dioxide to make cakes rise. These include Cream of Tartar (to acidify the recipe) and they also often include drying agents ( such as Starch)

    if you have baking SODA it's probably pure sodium Bicarbonate (or bicarbonate of soda.. same thing just a different way of saying it.. like H2O, HHO or Dihydrogen Monoxide ;p )

    Baking powder is full of other "junk" (good for well risen cakes.. probably not so good in a car engine) that you don't need.

    does that help?

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    Re: HHO Conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    I know nothing about cars... but I do know a bit about baking glad my cross over skills can be of some use to you
    Yeah thanks.

    I decided to use Caustic soda as my catalyst in the end as it will last and wont damage the stailess steel electrodes.

    That stuff is nasty though. Supprised you can just buy it over the counter. .


    Got to the point with it all now that I am producing a fair amount of hydrogen but not enough to warrent bolting it on the car yet to test.

    Im re-designing the electrodes and combining 6 'cells' together.

    Also have to make some safty euipment for it like a bubbler incase of backfire and a water trap.

  6. #26
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    Re: HHO Conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    I decided to use Caustic soda as my catalyst in the end as it will last and wont damage the stailess steel electrodes.

    That stuff is nasty though. Supprised you can just buy it over the counter. .
    Please don't use that.

    Caustic soda (or sodium hydroxide, NaOH) is highly corrosive to aluminium. Just try sanding off the anodised layer of an empty alu drinks can and placing it in your solution. Impressive fissing and not much can left. Just don't smoke when you do this because the gas coming off in large amounts is hydrogen.

    If your hydrogen and oxygen stream happens to take along a fine aerosol of sodium hydroxide into your engine your can expect the rapid demise of any aluminium part in your engine (carb, cylinder head, pistons) all of which you miss.

    another little aside. In your eletrolytic cell where you are generating hydrogen and oxygen it might be a good idea to put a semipermiable membrane between the two parts of the cell and a solid barrier between the two gas collection compartments. The two parts hydrogen one part oxygen mix is a fairly impressive (from a distance) explosive. It is best to keep these two gas streams apart until the point of mixing in the engine. Try filling a balloon with your gas misture and use a long match (about 50cm long) to ignite it. Safety glasses and ear defenders would be needed if you want to keep our eyes or ears. If you do not keep these two parts of the cell or gas streams apart then an accidental short in the cell could set this off inside your car.

    BTW I still can't see how this violates one of the fundemental laws of physics in that you cannot get out more energy than you put in. So if you are getting more energy out you are either putting more in (which sounds like a waste of effort) or you are using an energy source more efficiently (sounds like a good thing). What are the claims for this system and what impartial evidence do they use to back this up with?

    As for dangerous chemicals being freely available on the high street - you have no idea - and that is just the way the general public should be left.
    Last edited by Chef; 31st-July-2009 at 02:39 PM.

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    Re: HHO Conversion

    The voltage in to the electrodes is not great enough to release the Custic Soda in to the stream so should be pretty safe. Also will be running the mix in to a bubbler which should take out any unwanted gasses and particals.

    With regards to taking more out than putting in rules are there to be broken . In all prob, no this can not happen however, what will happen is that the catalyst and water eventually get used (water being the fuel) and also if you look at the energy being used in the HHO process and try to locate that somewhere 'off' the actual burning of the fuel to energy to car movement process you will be on to a winner. If the battery Cell could run off Solar or even through the cars braking system like they have in F1 Cars at the mo, it would be a great result

    The HHO in to the line is there not as a replacement for the petrol (athlough this has been done) but to help 'thin' it out and give it more combustion.

    There are mixed results all over the net. One gide though that is useful is at http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/

  8. #28
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    Re: HHO Conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    The voltage in to the electrodes is not great enough to release the Custic Soda in to the stream so should be pretty safe. Also will be running the mix in to a bubbler which should take out any unwanted gasses and particals.]
    What happens is that the positive sodium ion move to the negative electrode where they pick up an electron from the electrode and become an atom of sodium. This sodium atom reacts with the water to produce sodium hydroxide and hydrogen. The bubbles rise to the surface where they break and in the process they form a fine aerosol of whatever solution you are using. Your bubbler and particle filter should sort out the problem but check them regulalrly or it is goodbye to your engine.

    You might have noticed that all the sodium hydroxide is ending up near the negative electrode. If this process is done slowly enough then the sodium hydroxide redistubutes itself in the cells by diffusion. If the current into the cell is too high then all the sodium hydroxide ends up on one side and the conductivity of the cell drops (so the production rate of the cell will drop). This is known as polarisation of the cell. This is why large area, closely spaced electrodes are used so that diffusion can occur more easily. Because the electrodes are closely spaced there is increased risk of an accidental short if the lelectrodes are jolted and a non conductive semi permiable membrane is used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    With regards to taking more out than putting in rules are there to be broken . In all prob, no this can not happen however, what will happen is that the catalyst and water eventually get used (water being the fuel) and also if you look at the energy being used in the HHO process and try to locate that somewhere 'off' the actual burning of the fuel to energy to car movement process you will be on to a winner. If the battery Cell could run off Solar or even through the cars braking system like they have in F1 Cars at the mo, it would be a great result

    The HHO in to the line is there not as a replacement for the petrol (athlough this has been done) but to help 'thin' it out and give it more combustion.

    There are mixed results all over the net. One gide though that is useful is at http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/
    If you can utilise some waste energy sources such as the energy dissapated in the braking system or waste heat from the cooling system then that would be great. You would be using your system as a energy storage system.

    I will have a look at the link. Thank you.

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