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Thread: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

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    Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    no West Coast Swing (no entrants apparently)
    Even the invitational JnJ got cancelled ? Pity as it's a lot of fun...

    Could it be that the WCS community is now not 'living on the back of MJ' anymore and able to sustain its own events and its own comps ? With more and more dedicated events for WCS that run comps, I'd understand people need to pick and choose the events they will attend and therefore may not see an MJ event with some WCS (or even a true 50/50 event) that appealing ?
    I know some people still like both equally, but I wonder overall if after some point people don't make a choice about which dance they prefer and focus on that?
    What's the general consensus ?

    I know for my part I have pretty much dropped out of the MJ scene (although I would have been at the event for the JnJ if I had not been in the US), simply because I find wcs suits me better, and that's the dance I'd rather focus my efforts (and money!) on - I wonder if they are a lot of people that truly maintain a strong presence on both scenes ?

    Sorry might be a tad off topic

    Not any more it isn't.
    Moved from Britrock - The Aftermath thread - DavidY
    Last edited by DavidY; 24th-July-2009 at 08:17 AM. Reason: Split from Britrock- The Aftermath thread

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    I split the thread because I think it's a good question.

    Personally, I've dabbled in WCS. I've not had time to devote to it in the last year or two, but I may give it another go at some point.

    But as a WCS beginner leader, I find my own limited repertoire of moves is very boring after a while. Although people following me may not mind too much as they only have to dance with me once, for myself it gets boring. So a solid night of WCS would be a daunting prospect - an event with a mix of MJ and WCS would be much easier for me as I could go back to MJ to relax and add variety.

    So if I was going to take up WCS again, I'd definitely look for mixed events, at least for a while until I was truly confident at WCS. I think mixed events definitely have an appeal for the transitioning leader - but it's also good to be at an event where there are some good WCS dancers to aspire to.
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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    So if I was going to take up WCS again, I'd definitely look for mixed events, at least for a while until I was truly confident at WCS. I think mixed events definitely have an appeal for the transitioning leader - but it's also good to be at an event where there are some good WCS dancers to aspire to.
    Totally agree with David on this. As a new follower it's just too scary to go to a freestyle/event that's just WCS until I've had sufficient time to practise in a workshop setting, but for me I don't really get the chance to practise or go to classes apart from weekenders. So I need more practise, and get more confident, but at the same time still want to be able to watch, learn from and be inspired by people who are/appear to be brilliant at WCS.

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    I personally would prefer a dedicated WCS as opposed to a 50:50 MJ/WCS event simply because I find it quite difficult to keep switching between the two. I had been dancing MJ for about a year when I started weekly WCS classes and soon found myself attending fewer and fewer MJ class nights and freestyles.
    I much prefer and understand WCS, and due to limited time had to make a choice between the two. The fact that Paul W started teaching weekly in Bristol was the concluding factor for me.
    I attended my first WCS event in February after about 5 months, and, yes it was daunting and I was not confident in the least but it was such a steep learning curve it was so worth doing. It was only then that I was able to put what I had learned at classes and workshops into context, and it started to make more sense.
    Compared to this time last year there appears to be so much more choice in terms of dance events aimed at attracting WCS dancers. It may be that I am just more aware of the options but I get the impression WCS is expanding rapidly in the UK and there are now enough people to sustain dedicated WCS freestyles and weekenders as Caro suggests.

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    So there's obviously plenty of freestyles/weekenders for those who know what they're doing, and pockets of the UK which cater for workshop/regular classes. Now we just want them to spread a little further, so that more places get weekly classes rather than having to try and get to monthly workshops that are some way away. Here's hoping that in the near future there'll be more coming

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    I'll add my 2 cents (or should that be 2 pence, being in the UK..?) :-

    I think I prefer the dedicated WCS nights to be separate from MJ - when I first started learning WCS, my MJ dance moves/feet & body movement were constantly interfering with what I was consciously trying to do in learning and pratcising WCS basics.

    As dottie and others have said, due to the steep learning curve, I was determined to immerse myself with WCS for each night rather than trying to let WCS and MJ mix in the same setting. There could be an argument for having say two separated areas of the dance venue where one has MJ, the other WCS. But it meant that if I were to attend that dance venue, I'd have to be disciplined enough to concentrate on one or the other, for me its WCS these days...


    Anyway, about the explosion of WCS around the UK, its been amazing for me to observe. Three weeks ago I was out at Wetherby (Dr. Chill's Chilled Sunday afternoon), and they had a WCS Leeds-organised workshop with David Higgins & Lisa Ferrie. To see good numbers of people from all around the Leeds/Yorkshire area to come gather and try to learn WCS, that is a great example of the UK WCS scene growing!

    Incidentally, up here in Glasgow, Graham Fox had recently started up pure WCS workshops, that was great fun for me (relatively more advanced moves like dips!). And there will be a WCS/Blues pure freestyle night he'll be setting up in Glasgow soon(!)

    So yeah, I'm definitely liking how the WCS scene is going onwards and upwards here in the UK!

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    My own $.02...most people posting here seem to have at least a beginner interest in WCS. That doesn't apply to everyone. Myself and many of my friends prefer MJ. It appears that the trend is going towards WCS which is ok for those that want to do it but it should not mean that MJ becomes obsolete. Personally, I find mixed WCS/MJ freestyles unappealing as I don't think the crossover in the music is that great. I'm sure WCS is big enough now to have it's own events and let the MJers have their own events back.

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Quote Originally Posted by AussieJ View Post
    I'll add my 2 cents (or should that be 2 pence, being in the UK..?) :-
    I think the term your looking for is 2 penneth. Yes, weird I know but its what we say
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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Even the invitational JnJ got cancelled ? Pity as it's a lot of fun...
    Caro, I think Minnie was referring to Britrock from last Oct when the WCS category was cancelled (as you well know since you were lined up to judge it) The Weston Leroc Champs WCS categories this weekend are still going ahead I believe.

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Caro, I think Minnie was referring to Britrock from last Oct when the WCS category was cancelled (as you well know since you were lined up to judge it) The Weston Leroc Champs WCS categories this weekend are still going ahead I believe.
    Jeez I didn't realise I replied to a post from last year ! Stupid me !
    Looking forward to hear about how the event goes this weekend

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    But as a WCS beginner leader, I find my own limited repertoire of moves is very boring after a while. Although people following me may not mind too much as they only have to dance with me once, for myself it gets boring. So a solid night of WCS would be a daunting prospect - an event with a mix of MJ and WCS would be much easier for me as I could go back to MJ to relax and add variety.
    Quote Originally Posted by emmylou25 View Post
    Totally agree with David on this. As a new follower it's just too scary to go to a freestyle/event that's just WCS until I've had sufficient time to practise in a workshop setting, but for me I don't really get the chance to practise or go to classes apart from weekenders.
    You know I think this probably is the main trap (and a vicious circle) when it comes to becoming a proficient wcs dancer. Personally I've always found it hard to come from MJ to WCS in the same evening, the conventions and rules within both dances are just different, and it is not that easy to switch from one to the other. It's only when I started to go to dedicated wcs events that my wcs dancing really improved. I'm not sure you get much from doing a few dances during an MJ evening - if anything I think it is more likely to impair your dancing in both dances and lead to more frustration.

    I know it's hard, especially for leaders, but I think that as soon as you have the basic patterns pinned down, the best way to see a significant improvement is to spend a full evening focusing on your wcs - it may be painful at first, but I'm pretty sure it is worth the effort

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    I know it's hard, especially for leaders, but I think that as soon as you have the basic patterns pinned down, the best way to see a significant improvement is to spend a full evening focusing on your wcs - it may be painful at first, but I'm pretty sure it is worth the effort
    It was for me, on both counts.

    I had to separate the two dances entirely for quite a long time before I could swap between them in the same night. In fact, probably well over a year before I could switch reliably. I suspect this coincided with my MJ becoming very much more like WCS over that time so the difference wasn't as great as it used to be.

    My only advice would be that if you are interested in becoming proficient (as a leader anyway - Caro can speak for the followers ) in WCS you have to be prepared to do those evenings when all you lead is the basic patterns. It's practice that ingrains them, and once the footwork and connection feels natural from those everything else becomes a lot easier to learn and apply.

    There is light at the end of the tunnel. I promise

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    ... in WCS you have to be prepared to do those evenings when all you lead is the basic patterns. It's practice that ingrains them
    Which is fine until your teachers decide to start teaching an underarm turn with a step back down the slot on 2 instead of crossing. Muscle memory is suddenly a hindrance not a help

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Which is fine until your teachers decide to start teaching an underarm turn with a step back down the slot on 2 instead of crossing. Muscle memory is suddenly a hindrance not a help
    Sure, but at least you can one (important) thing well rather than everything badly

    Learning that you can ignore those basic steps in favour of something else is, IMO, a little further down the line for the people who are just trying to get to grips with the basics at the moment.

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Sure, but at least you can one (important) thing well rather than everything badly

    Learning that you can ignore those basic steps in favour of something else is, IMO, a little further down the line for the people who are just trying to get to grips with the basics at the moment.
    I wasn't talking about a variation. The basic/default leaders footwork (as taught by Paul and Cat) for the UT is now step down the slot on 2 rather than crossing. I don't know at what point this change was made as my attendance at classes is patchy but I know I cross more often than not just out of muscle memory from the way that I originally was taught by them.

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I wasn't talking about a variation. The basic/default leaders footwork (as taught by Paul and Cat) for the UT is now step down the slot on 2 rather than crossing. I don't know at what point this change was made as my attendance at classes is patchy but I know I cross more often than not just out of muscle memory from the way that I originally was taught by them.
    Then consider it a variation and say you're deliberately mixing it up

    If that's the case, then beginners will learn that as their basic and learn it well. My point still stands - they need to get a solid foundation before everything else gets easier. The exact basic patterns used to do that are less important IMO than the fact that the whole set of them covers off all the bases.

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Well I think I might re-clarify my 2 penneth post above after last night

    Last night, I went to the Friday Focus Rutherglen dance party - in the context of this thread, its a Ceroc/MJ freestyle night. Of significance is the fact that not only the main dance hall was in use, but also the smaller 'Blues' room with Tiggerbabe as DJ

    I was pleasantly surprised to see that three of my regular WCS classmates (Scott, Trish, Anne) were at the event! It was their first time at a Friday Focus Rutherglen dance party, and here's the thing - whilst all three are very competent WCSers, they don't do Ceroc/MJ.

    But they all came anyway and what fun did we all have - alternating between WCS and MJ dances!
    • Everyone appreciated how they were able to switch between the main room and the Blues room depending on the songs being played, e.g. if the main room music got too up-beat for WCS, we walked into the Blues room and did WCS there, and vice versa if the Blues room music got too slow.
    • Scott said he'd given Ceroc a go a couple of times but never liked it, as a WCS lead he found it the Ceroc/MJ 'footwork' hard to get his head around. So he just does WCS, pure and simple - even if there's MJ dancers around him and the songs are definitely more Ceroc/MJ friendly in terms of rhythm/beat/tempo.
    • Anne had a great evening, she was pleasantly surprised to find that she was able to follow the Ceroc/MJ leads well - to me it came as no big surprise, but it was good to see her out of her WCS comfort zone and having a ball.
    • Trish, well she's such a good WCSer that it didn't take long for the Ceroc regulars to notice her and kept queueing up for a dance with her. Her WCS dancing in the Blues room even got Tiggerbabe asking me who Trish was


    On a personal level, I was very pleased to find myself being able to switch between WCS and MJ. It wasn't perfectly seamless, there were a few times I just had to stop for a few seconds and then do the starter step in beat with the music. I came away feeling happy that my WCS freestyle seems to have gotten better, mixing and matching, and I felt more confident doing it, especially in a big social dance setting (ironically, at a Ceroc/MJ freestyle!). And yes, as NZ Monkey has said earlier, I have also found that my MJ has become more slotted and WCS-like these days, so it probably made it a lot easier for me to do the changeups from WCS to MJ and viceversa on the same evening.

    *phew*

    So as to my original post, I will now say that I think mixed events *are* do-able - whether it be two separate 'rooms' or what have you - but in the end, its up to the WCS lead has to be disciplined and have had the necessary experience to be able to comfortably switch back and from between MJ and WCS at the same dance event. As for the WCS followers, the anecdotal evidence I've seen so far suggests that its easier to switch between MJ and WCS, but I do symphathize with emmylou on the notion that followers would also like to have a 'pure' evening of WCS or MJ instead of mixing it up.

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    Registered User fandangle's Avatar
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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Personally I've always found it hard to come from MJ to WCS in the same evening, the conventions and rules within both dances are just different, and it is not that easy to switch from one to the other. It's only when I started to go to dedicated wcs events that my wcs dancing really improved. I'm not sure you get much from doing a few dances during an MJ evening - if anything I think it is more likely to impair your dancing in both dances and lead to more frustration.
    That was my point really. I think that both styles of dance are sufficiently different enough that they should be separate. It's ok to have two rooms with one style in each at an event but I can't help thinking it's just a cynical way of the organisers trying to attract as many people as possible to their events and there isn't that much crossover during an event.

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I wasn't talking about a variation. The basic/default leaders footwork (as taught by Paul and Cat) for the UT is now step down the slot on 2 rather than crossing. I don't know at what point this change was made as my attendance at classes is patchy but I know I cross more often than not just out of muscle memory from the way that I originally was taught by them.
    Yes, my teachers are the same. They changed, I dunno, six months ago, maybe more. Personally, I have yet to see any decent US Pro use this method (not saying they don't, just not seen it). I have come to the conclusion that if crossing is good enough for Jordan, it's good enough for me So I ignore it and cross as always.

    Heh, frankly I am probably in the wrong on this second one, I also ignore the no-prep on '1' instruction as well since I learn't to prep on one sometimes. This one I can actually see a reason for the change, but since it doesn't seem to effect either my or my partners dancing and IMO actually looks better to prep on '1' and '2' (better flow) rather than just on '2', I ignore it also.

    I have no idea why these changes were made, all I can think of it that these changes are really about correcting a fault. The fault of not giving a definite and clear lead down the slot on '1'. I can see how both changes might help beginners make that '1' lead clearer. But that's just a guess.
    Last edited by TA Guy; 25th-July-2009 at 02:45 PM.

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    Re: Dedicated WCS events or mixed MJ/WCS events?

    Quote Originally Posted by fandangle View Post
    I can't help thinking it's just a cynical way of the organisers trying to attract as many people as possible to their events and there isn't that much crossover during an event.
    Hmm...that sounds cynical

    Maybe the organisers are just moving forward with the times.

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